Jaw dropping enhancements in sound quality

Well put ShinOBIWAN.

 

What's the cost breakdown of (UK) retail then?

Paul

 

I think in most real top-end speakers you are paying for the cabinet mostly. Shinobiwan knows just how much labor goes in to making a nice box!

The profit margin on speakers is only about as high as any other hi-fi as far as I know (maybe a little more), so while it is high, it is not a case of being ripped off any more than when you buy other kit from a dealer. Anyway, good drivers only get you so far, good design is what makes a standout product.

 

So given this said, 5-10% on drivers, would it not be an idea to spend cash on a set of speakers and then replace the drivers with decent ones, I don't know, costing say £90ea, rather than £33ea.....or does the speaker box play a critical role too?

Or is that a daft idea

EDIT I was a bit longer writing this than Tenson above

So a decent box too..ok

What may I ask, makes a decent box (or is this down to personal choice too) ?

 

Good old esl 57's and 63's
I some how don't think they are loosing money on the new ones though.

 

Too many Sage like rules of thumb IMO.So here's another;-)
The sheer man hours involved in assembling and finishing some LS cabinets (Westminster/Prestige range for example)can easily gobble up 15% of price-craftsman AFAIK don't work for minimum wage, factor in R&D, raw materials, transportation, warehousing and wages you're looking at more like 20-40%.
On the subject of jaw dropping;
Taking 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds out of Lancaster cabs and installing them rear mounted into very well braced T&S tuned rectangular York enclosures-an utter transformation of every area of their performance.

 

Drivers are the foundation for a loudspeaker system and the limiting factor. The crossover and cabinet are built around these. I'm not trying to underplay the role of design details but the majority of non-linearity in a loudspeaker is driver related rather than crossover or cabinet. It therefore makes for higher potential should less compromised drivers be used from the off.

 

Absolutely right.

 

Cooky enough about Tannoy.

I just did a search on that term and your featured in virtually every result.

 

Paul,

there's about £3K worth of drive units in a pair. Retail is £25K. Slightly more generous, but remember these are not sold through reatil outfits - they are sold direct by the company or customers who bought theirs at a discount.

Cooky, I'm not berating Tannoy as they make some good value large speakers, but if they aren't producing at 20% of retail they will go out of business. Dealers in the UK expect between 45% and 50% margin on larger loudspeakers. The manufacturer is making 25% to 30%. These aren't pie in the sky figures - I work with a lot of people directly involved in this.

As Sinobiwan says, the truth is that £2K buys an entry level loudspeaker in many ways. I would say that speakers costing five figures really can be ear opening and make you realise just how compromised most designs are. And I'd also agree that the DIY route is really not something I would recommend to the inexperienced. There was a time when loudspeaker kits were the staple diet of the british hifi industry. I don't see that returning, but there are still some decent designs out there that punch above their weight from the likes of IPL.

 

I think the best upgrade you can do is don't spend £2k on new speakers, but spend the same amount on something second hand from about 10 years ago.

 

Most people are looking for something that not only sounds good but also looks equally well. Everyone's first couple of DIY attempts look, lets say, less than professional. If I couldn't put a professional finish on my DIY efforts then I'd also be less enthusiastic about it - and that's coming from someone who is very much into the whole DIY ideal. So its easy to see one possible reason for the decline and that leads to the another reason: time. DIY takes lots of this regardless of skill. Add to this the want for a professional finish and things just look less appealing than handing over hard earned cash and taking the speaker home and being able to enjoy them that same day.

DIY will always be a minuscule footnote compared to commercial sales. Neither way is better than the other. I used to think DIY would save me heaps of money, and it does, but that is vastly offset by the sheer amount of hours and effort you have to put into such endeavours not to mention all the failures and mistakes. You do have the satisfaction of knowing your listening and looking at something entirely of your own making and when it comes good that's a pretty good feeling but, at times, I do think you have to be a bit tapped in the head get to that point.

 

Andy, your sensibility insults the spirit of this now derailed thread.

I'll go one up on ya and suggest spending £2k on hula girls, beer, cake and kebabs for maximum val... I mean enjoyment for money.

 

Ah the professional finish! As someone who still thinks jig saws are puzzles, that's the bit I find an issue. Audio theory? No worries. Woodwork? Ha!

The pre packaged kits I've seen Sideshow and Julian make are pretty attractive to be honest, but when starting from scratch, most of us will need to employ the services of a cabinet maker at some point. My latest project has enabled me to get a sound I otherwise simply couldn't dream of affording - but you should see the look on women's faces when they enter the living room!

At the very high end, if you know what you want, going bespoke can still save a fortune, but in general Andy is spot on IME - buy used and be prepared to spend as much as possible.

David,

I wouldn't dream of suggesting a loudspeaker - it's really subjective and highly room dependent. Older Ruarks can be really good value for money IME. The only rules of thumb I have are that given the same relatively low price, a two way is always better than a three way and a standmount better than a floorstander - assuming you already have stands.

 

there's a hot speaker on US indie market - emerald physics CS2 - that seems easy to break the costs and it doesn't fit into the 5-10% cathegory mention at the beginning of the thread.

it retails for 3000 USD.

it has 4 eminence alpha 15 drivers - 4x $60 = $240
it has 2 BMS tweeters, say 2x $150= $300

it comes with dbx active crossover/DSP unit with a mic - i would expect this to be around $500 at least

it comes with a dedicated software for dbx....

this all comes up to at least $1000...

it retails for $3000...

i'm afraid that the 5-10% formula applies only to the big guns - dynaudio, JBL, jm lab etc. i can remember that the guy who worked for dynaudio DIY sales once told me that the production costs of esotar D330 was 7 euros.


active, dipole

 

Shin, thought your Post #20 was spot on.

I gave up on the modern £2k-£3k designs long ago. I find them such a let down for something that is quite a reach financially for most people.

The only ones that impressed me in terms of value for money was the ATC SCM35. The drivers sseemed rather chunky considering the price point...Also, I sold my pair on eBay for £1350 a year ago. A pair just sold on eBay for a little more than half that this week ---- same speakers but what a diffeence in price and only because the SCM40 was released...valuations of old gear can get a wee bit out of wack very quickly.

 

That's more like it...don't be afraid to move some bloody air!!

 

Not true. It applies to pretty much any loudspeaker manufacturer that sells quality product in the UK through traditional channels.

That offering you mentioned does neither - sells direct from the US. There's no cabinet and I think you probably overestimate the cost of the DSP unit. Look at the RETAIL price of Behringer equivalents. If that speaker were available through dealers, it would cost $6K

I think he's telling you porkies! Do you know how long it takes to make just a single D330? Dynaudio could only build around 1000 per annum due to the precision required and the faceplate alone would come in at close to €7 finished. The D330 is a highly developed drive unit.It was never officially available through "DIY sales" - this might explain the guy's comment

 

There's a good reason why that rough rule of thumb applies to the big players. And that same reason is exactly why they are the big players. Of course you do get some divergence but its unsurprising in your example since its an open baffle design which means a great deal less cabinet material and finishing costs(one of the most costly parts in manufacturers cost breakdown). At least they put that saving back into the drivers and crossover rather than sticking it on the profit margin.

Despite that one example, I think everyone should be cynical of just where their money is going when they buy hifi and particularly hi end hifi gear.

BTW The Dynaudio guy was almost certainly pulling your leg or just shouting off for effect. The rare earth ferrite magnet would cost about that even at wholesale I'd guess. So in material costs alone it would be in excess 7euro making his production cost revelation of the same price seem highly unlikely.
But driver manufacturers aren't immune to big markup either. Nowhere near to the same extent as speakers but if you bought £2k worth of drivers the production cost is likely half that.

There are rare cases here where direct sales from the manufacturer of the drivers themselves are only making 20-30% on top of the driver cost. RAAL is a good example - a one man business, all drivers hand built with a long involved process(time is money). Unfortunately Alex who run RAAL has found that he's very quickly needed to hike up prices to make a comfortable living out of it. You'll now pay over £600 for a pair of his best ribbon drivers compared to just £400 back in January this year. Quite some difference.

 

Enough about Tannoy? That's fightin' talk where I come from

I'd still argue that the high end models are in the 20-40% range but heavily subsidised by very high volume(!)/low unit cost cheaper models.
They all shift a site more £100 pairs than £10k ones.

Mike,
They very nearly did go out of business due to high manufacturing costs!