Leading edges of notes

I've heard this expression bandied around a lot recently. Now perhaps I am genuinely hard of hearing or totally lacking in perception, but I hear a note as a note. It doesn't have a leading, trailing or indeed any other type of edge that I can ascertain. Someone plays a note, voilà, there it is. As far as I can hear, it doesn't change character from when it starts to when it finishes. I've yet to hear a musician saying how great his or her leading edges are. I've listened in vain to try to distinguish leading edges and the bits that presumably come after that.

So, is this yet another load of gobbledygook that the manufacturers and the hi-fi press are foisting upon us, something that somebody has thought up and that everyone else is repeating in the typical hi-fi me too, king-with-no-clothes fashion, so as not to feel left out? Or is there really something to it? If so, what? What should I be listening for, assuming I was ever daft enough actually to want to? Give me the edge on edges!

 

Stand by for action, anything mana posted in the next half hour
Tones, my elder stateman Brother in namesake, leading edge note definition has a presidense for more than few people, usually at the expence of the rest of the note, hence the 'beeding edge term', all front clout and bugger all behind it, ie depth and decay of trailing edge note body, thats how I call it, but there is more to music, than just leading edge definition. some of us have it all

 

part of it comes from engineering speak, when you have a square wave, from an oscillator, or signal generator, it rises to a point, stays level, and then falls, so it looks a bit like a box, or square. The rising edge is the leading edge, the falling edge the trailing edge.

I think when listening in subjective speake, its how defined the note is, harder, if you like in some than others, more distinct, giving perhaps more detail or prat on drums.

 

I believe it means that sort of visceral sound you get from things like plucked guitars sort of, ish.... You know the first bit of the note that leaps out of your speakers pinning you to your chair etc...

In reality I think it's a hash treble colouration common in naim systems...

 

However Ian, you can 'Artifically enhance' this charactoristic of the sound, by various Mechanical methods as well as digital engineering means Have you ever heard a mana system say on 4 levels or above? you'll get the point straight away .
We have here quite a few methods of 'dropping in mana' without the use of angle iron best left for the purists I feel. Wm

 

Quite so Tony!

What the angle iron seems to do is accentuate the rise of an instrument's note, by effectively removing the rest of it, particularly the natural decay of a soundwave.

Where's it hiding? It's probably resonating up and down 9 levels of glass and metal.

Leading edge attack is essential to proper pace and timing I find. But far too many systems concentrate on getting it right at the expense of the rest of the music, leading to hard hitting but hard sounding systems that are only really any good for punchy rock music and the odd bit of Country.

 

Surely what we are talking about here is attack and decay? No offence to Data, but claiming that it is the rising edge of waveform is hookum, if you can hear the first rising edge of a note then you have super human hearing!

Now to desribe attack and decay in text form is next to impossible, but I'm up for the challenge. Take a piano note and it kinda breaks down like this:

Attack - Note(sustain?) - Decay

D - UUUUUUU - NNNNnnnnnggggg

No jokes about dung please - you try to describe a piano note

So the quality of the leading edge will be how natural the sound of the hammer hitting the string is (the D...).

 

So, is "attack" what we're really talking about, the fact that the attack is sharper with some instruments (the plucked string of a guitar) than with others (the bowed string of a violin)? But that's the characteristic of the instrument, not of the hi-fi. Or are you saying that some hi-fis can make a violin sound like a guitar, or at least partially on the way thereto by changing this attack? I have never heard this. The timbre of the note would always distinguish the two, even on the worst hi-fi (even on my tiny Sony SW100 SW receiver!). It sounds as if I'm again committing my old sin, in being too busy listening to the music to listen to the hi-fi. Silly me..

 

I remember watching one of the Royal Society lectures they used to show on BBC2 over the summer. They had an experiment where they recorded the same note on a violin and a piano. When played back you could easily differentiate the two instruments. They then edited the recordings to remove the leading edge or 'attack'. When played back the two recordings sounded identical. The leading edge, although a small part of the waveform, is obviously rather important.

David

 

You guys whinge like hell when Mana is brought up by anyone else, and here you are discussing it yourselves!

Merlin's analysis is spot on as always - classical music sounds absolutely dreadful through all the Mana'd systems I've heard, a design weakness I guess.

 

The 'leading edge' is what any synth user would describe as the 'attack' stage of the envelope. Try www.computermusic.co.uk/tutorial/a_sforbeg/asynth2.asp for a introduction to the simplified note envelopes used in analogue synthesis.

Using a real world example a string on an acoustic guitar played with a pick has a clear percussive 'ting' sound as the pick hits the string, this is the 'attack' or 'leading edge' and is followed by a purer, truer note emerging in the decay stage of the cycle.

Tony.

 

I didn't say it WAS listening to edges, I tried to inform about where the origin of the term comes from!!

It is I believe talking about attack and decay, of notes really.

How defined and 'hard' or discernable they are. Yes I suppose it is listening not to the music as a whole, but breaking it down into its consituent parts.

If you look at an analogue synthsiser, there is a section called the envelope generator, or the EG, this has usually 4 sliders for attack, sustain, decay and release, and you can vary the times of these...its considered an important part for shaping the quality of the sound, how long or slow the attack time is.(ooops edited to add, just been beaten to the punch, above)

 

I knew it, I'm a worthless, imperceptive old git! I never sit down and analyse notes like this. My question is, "does it sound like a guitar/choir/trumpet/orchestra/ukelele/big bass drum?" and if the answer is more than half-way to "yes", I'm as happy as a pig in organic fertiliser. Guys, you're welcome to your leading edges, naturally or artificially created, I'll stick to the music.

 

I always thought that one of the best examples of "leading edges" was displayed by drums.
For me, I find that most systems are rubbish at dealing with making drums sound anything like real as most appear to make them sound simply soft, soggy and underwhelming (IMO having poor "leading edges").

I have to say that I think WMs system is probably the best system I've yet heard at dealing with drums and making them sound real, and his system is also as good at dealing with the trailing edge as any I've heard.

Having said all of the above, I actually think that Naim gear does a really good job of this when compared to most comparable manufacturers (i.e. products of equal cost new). Still, that's just my opinion.

 

IMHO all this stuff is bunk... naim sounds like this, imaging vs timing, PRaT, mana, cables, mains blah blah blah etc etc etc..

Basically a person can convince themselves of anything especially when money is involved and I must say that the two biggest things that influence my hifi sound are the quality of recordings and the mood I'm in..

Leading edges what does it mean?.... It means do instruments sound like real instuments or not? To which the answer will always be no.. Real Instruments sound like Real Instuments what we mostly have here is good "hifi" sound.

I have heard the best on offer from a number of very good dealers and I was not impressed. One system worth well in excess of 50k had no bass, none, nada, not a sossa, but I was told that it was voiced for classical and you had to expect that.. Odd.
A naim dealer said that the harsh, strident, bass less sound I was hearing from over 10k of kit was due to the "naim sound" and I'd get used to it - full of leading edges though...
Odder.
Another dealer told me that the huge, bass heavy, dull, leaden sound produced by some 12k's worth was Majestic and had weight and presence...
Even more odd,


The very best sound I have heard for ages was a simple record player, nice integrated and some decent floorstanders, it was a copy of Beth Ortons, Daybreaker. A badly recorded album. This occured at my house last sunday and do you know why... Cos I really like that record and so does my missus...

Chilling on the sofa with a glass of, a mate and a relaxed attitude made me forget about the sound qualty and just listen to a record I like without analysis for the first time in a long while
....and it sounded bloody good.

Leading edge to me means nothing at all it's just a made up term used to sell hifi.....

A good tune is a good tune even the 10 pound tranny radio in the toilet.

That's why on another thread dealers are complaining about profits and timewasters because people are not buying the line that 10k is always better than 1k, plinky crap is always plinky crap and if I'm spending 10 large I want clarity, bass extension and most of all a system that plays whatever I put on it well, so a system that's good at "leading edges" whatever they are is probably no good to me.
On that bass point most stand mount speakers go to what.. 45htz-6db so forget accurate reproduction of most modern electronic music or reggae or basically any thing with bass.

What kind of rubbish are we being sold, even the mags all come out with lines like you don't notice the lack of lower frequencies... Well I bloody do thanks so stick your standmounters up your butt.

I am probably making no chums here but there it is...

The perfect sound.. Easy the sound I like thanks...

I am a bit bored today by the way!!

 

An interesting admission there Bub. Care to elaborate? I mean, would you say that weakness was a set-up issue, maybe something to do with the musical tastes and therefore equipment choice of those systems/users? Maybe different equipment on Mana would redress the (im)balalnce? Or simply that Mana don't play classical or acoustic material with less beat driven impetus as well?

This issue also IMO affects the perception of the musical performance, as well as the "timbral" issues already discussed. Emphasis on leading edge will create the impression of a performance which is more "staccato". Is that any clearer or more relevant to your prefered style of listening Tones?

 

hear hear! more power to ya, joolsbuger.

sense at last, yes I have found it does depend on the mood one is in, whether receptive to it, feel like it, that sort of thing, more music and less intellectualism I say!! good for you jools

As it happens, most standmounts roll of around 70 hz, maybe up to 100 hz, so they lose loads of weight, its suprising the amount of presence and body this small, well 2 octaves of the frequency range adds. And most medium floorstanders are around 55 hz, so MOST makers that are claiming 30 hz and all that are talking bollux, acoustic energy claims their aegis 1 is 38 hz!! now that is LOW esp fro a 5" standmount.

.

 

Nice emotional posting
Don't you have time for a nice walk? Enjoy the surroundings, the nature (or the cars and houses) and the natural sound of all of it.
Relax and maybe things will get better.

 

Titan,

I'm at work in London it's a horrid, grey, wet day the nearest decent bit of nature is 8 miles away and my boss is a dick..

My hifi is the one thing I AM happy with...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Arh Jools, I feel quite a few people could sympathise there