LP "ghosting" fwoabw. wtftaa

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~The Captain~

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If fwoabw is not currently an anacronym for 'for want of a better word' it jolly well should be.

Can anyone tell me what/ WTF is the ghosting I get on an LP just moments before the song starts I mean the faint 2 seconds worth of the track can be heard just before it starts is all about?

It not only annoys me but I cant understand how an LP can be made like so. Surely if its there during the LP, a faintly jumbling up the mix, it will slightly undermine & muddy the sound too. Its defo only an Lp thing.

On few of mine it seems especially apparant: my Rush Permenent Waves side A for eg springs to mind as particularly bad, & exactly the same on two quite different pressings of it too (so would have to be therefore a recording process anomaly then?).

Thx capt
 
This is pre-echo and is caused by the wall between adjacent tracks being distorted by the next track that is line with the stylus.The stylus is essentially reading the deformation caused by the next track before it actually gets into the grove.Can be caused by trying to squeeze too much information on to the disk which leaves the wall too thin between tracks.It can happen all through the disc but you only hear it if there is nothing recorded in the track that the stylus is sitting in.
Yes I know there is only one track on an LP because it's continuous from start to finish but I can't think of a better way to describe it.
 
Thanks that perfectly describes it. I have a hunch it might not be too much info being squeezed on in my cases, as the two egs of mine I can think of are pretty short 40min lp's, but rather somehow the grooves are sitting too close- simply by human error maybe? like a 'groove setting' set slightly too 'safe' as it were.. but I might be TCBllx!

cheers- anyone else get the hump on with this, or can shed any more light on why my short 20min side eg's suffer from it?
 
You also hear a similar thing sometimes with tapes where it's called 'print through'. This occurs where the tape layers are held closely together for long periods. Since lots of vinyl will have been produced from analogue tapes, its something to consider.

All part of the charm of vinyl.
 
What period is the vinyl from? Here is an interesting history of sqeezing all the tracks onto vinyl. Early vinyl has a fixed space between the tracks, and much later it was all optimised by computer.

 
Tenson said:
What period is the vinyl from? Here is an interesting history of sqeezing all the tracks onto vinyl. Early vinyl has a fixed space between the tracks, and much later it was all optimised by computer.

Click to expand...

Its from 1980, rush permanent waves. 2 pressings one significantly better sounding (grey lp centre label as opposed to the blue std type) but both have exactly same very audible 'ghost' 2 secs prior to the very start of lp.

This is best EG I have, and as I assume computer groove settings were not going on with this 1980 LP, coupled with the fact that both sides are short only a mere 20 mins each (so plenty of room for grooves to be spaced apart, surely).. Im still not understanding why on some Lp's it is so apparant: unless it is only due to a pressing taken from a 'contaminated' tape source.

My Classical Lp's have invariably much more time on each side (or if only 20 mins, then ending with a large run-out groove section unlike 'rock' Lps) but never the audible dreaded 'ghost' groove-interaction to (albeit only marginally so) spoiling a side.

(Some might say 'well its only a Rush Lp, and that silly twiddly-diddly gtr intro should be turned down anyway'!)
 
The fact that the "ghost" appears approx 2 seconds prior to the signal proper proves that it is coming from the adjacent track sidewall.At 33.33 rpm it takes that amount of time to do one revolution to the next track.
 
pete693 said:
The fact that the "ghost" appears approx 2 seconds prior to the signal proper proves that it is coming from the adjacent track sidewall.At 33.33 rpm it takes that amount of time to do one revolution to the next track.
Click to expand...

Yes its got to be the adjacent groove I think thats a defo.. but Im not understanding the reason for the groove(s) to be spaced like so you see, unless it was a lengthy side, which its not (or, why on this and a few other std lentgh lps only lets say) IE Im trying to whittle likely culprit as it were.

It has to be either human error the grooves were spaced too close is all I can boil it down to, maybe a friday PM error unless there's a better suggestion (I dont suppose the 'master' tape it might have come from is cooincidentally 2 seconds so ruling this idea out). If I was the band though Id not be happy with the result not being perfect at all after all the work put into it- maybe they get no say in the matter.. surely not and they check the final results with very keen ears. I dont understand.
 
It might have been a fixed pitch machine and set for a long play recording? Is there a massive lead-out groove?

Was Rush very rich and famous at that stage to afford lots of money for recording?

There is another possibility; the band thought it sounded cool so asked the engineer to sqeeze the first goove.

Is it on the CD version?
 
Tenson said:
It might have been a fixed pitch machine and set for a long play recording? Is there a massive lead-out groove?

Was Rush very rich and famous at that stage to afford lots of money for recording?

There is another possibility; the band thought it sounded cool so asked the engineer to sqeeze the first goove.

Is it on the CD version?
Click to expand...

No large run-out groove on either pressing (run-in groove a normal 2 turns or so).

Side only 18 1/2 mins so that surely means the side as a whole have the grooves 'spaced comfortably apart' (perhaps its just the one adjacent to the start groove then-?) compared to some Lp sides of 25+ mins.

Yes Rush were at their peak here more or less, but such precision 'progressive' musicians (boringly so many argue, without me interjecting) that I just can't see them actually wanting any such abhoration marring their end result.

Although as said I hear this 'ghosting' quite frequently (Id say as much as 1 in 5 of all my lp's, Led Zep 80's pressings, Bjork 90's pressings, Nina Nastasia pressings of 2000, Ive never heard this on any CD: no its unquestionably an Lp groove-to-groove thing.

If the side(s) in Q were unusually long, say at the max end for an Lp (if anyone can throw a figure in) Id understand. But invariably they're not, and so frequently I hear it, it annoys me and I still dont understand the reason its there.

Maybe Geddy Lee can reply- he's surely put on a copy, on a decent Lp spinner, and heard it and wondered why too.
 
Hi Captain,you're becoming fixated by this.It will spoil your pleasure.Lay back and enjoy the music.You'll be oiling the knobs on the volume control next and spending £1000 on a piece of wire that will only allow electricity to pass in one direction.
Pete.
 
Yes it might look like Im losing sleep over it (Im not! Im far from a total hifi-analist like those nerds who zap guns at their Lp players prior to putting a record on!) but its just its been a Q Ive had in the back of me head, for donkeys, just always forgot to ask- hence trying to get to the bttm of it that's all.

I have a feeling it may just be the start of either a side, or a song, and not all the way through as I had thought it naturally would be once heard. I dunno, still would like to know tbh; after all the £ involved in needles arms and decks if theres some 'fluff' permanentky on the Lp then it makes us look arses IMO.
 


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