Madrid, 11 March

Because it's probably an easy target,how hard is it for them to get into Spain? pretty easy southern Spainis only 22 odd KM from Morroco,and security isn't high here,high crime,mafias operating easily on the Costa Del Sol,so to hit the capital is no big problem.

Living in Fuengirola I remember the ETA attack of a few years ago,when it blew up a hotel apartment and later another near Mijas Golf,and they were nothing in comparison to the atrosities of Madrid,most people here think its al queda and not ETA,as it really doesn't point to there tactics.

A sign of things to come,and proof of the sick world we have to live in,oh thank-you so much religion,you have much to answer for.,

 

That may well be the way some of them think but if the West had a more enlightened and, more importantly, fair approach to the situation in Palestine then their support would rapidly fall away and radical Islamic terrorism would die out.

If your average Palestinian wasn't being oppressed by Israel, had a job and a future and spent his weekends chilling on the beach in Gaza then he's unlikely to be up for a suicide bombing, no matter how convincing the nutters are trying to brainwash him.

Bin Laden was created by the US's two faced approach to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. They trained him up and stoked the fires of the Jihad against the USSR and then they left him high and dry and now are wondering why this movement they created doesn't just roll over and die . Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Was just reading in the "Expresso" weekend paper here (Lisbon) that the airspace around the stadiums for Euro 2004 will be patrolled by Portuguese F-16s creating a 2km wide exclusion "cylinder" around each stadium and all flights below a certain altitude over the whole country will be restricted to international flights landing and taking off and emergency flights.

I've got tickets for England's first game (against France) and also for the "winner group A (Portugal's group), runner up group B (England's group)" quarter final. I'm looking forward to the games and won't let any terrorist threat put me off. TBH I'll be more afraid of hooligan violence!

Why Madrid? adam has already given good reasons but apart from Spain's involvement in the war they are still, in the view of some, occupying Arab land in Morrocco (like Ceuta).

Michael.

 

Dont even get me started on Israel!

Yes, there is a desperate need to resolve the Palestine issue, as you say this would certainly remove a lot of the oxygen of public support that the hardliners need in order to operate.

 

I would 'like' to believe it is ETA, however, like said, it is FAR to big for them, and not their style.
I would like to believe it is, as if otherwise, this kind of terrorism is insidious and dangerous, more complex and difficult to fathom than getting nuked by russian or america in the cold war.
This is so random.

The odd thing is, why do it, why kill innocents? What does it achieve? Just take lives for the sake of it, people who havn'et personally wronged you or even know you. Wipe them out for ever.

Maybe Pim Fortayne was right in saying 'radical' Islam is a backward in time in respect that it attempts to simply wipe all enemies out simply because they are enemies. that is similar to the old testiment, god wiping out his enemies, old religion.

That is the only way I can make sense of it, however real Muslims are nice people.

 

It's the same reason that all terrorists justify their actions by. Cause fear and "terror" in soceity in order that people influence their government to change tack and support their cause. Effectively: "Until you guys listen up and start doing something about <insert cause here> we're going to keep killing your citizens at random".

You mean Pim Fortuyn, the late leader of the Dutch extreme right-wing party (assasinated in May 2002) I assume. Data, after expressing views sympathetic with the BNP, suggesting that Pim Fortuyn was right about anything is only digging you in deeper

Islamic fundamentalism is as bad as any other kind of fundamentalism. Christian fundmentalists went over to the middle east in the 11th Century with the intention of "killing the enemies of God abroad" (The Crusades). Sound familiar?

Michael.

 

All are as bad as each other. Crikey ,catholics and protestants burned and mutilated each other not too many hundreds of years ago..

I am going to avoid controversial issues in future, I wasn't sympathizing with the BNP, I was attempting to knock dirty politics and biased reporting in our supposedly free country, and got jumped on as of the fear/reluctance first of all to address issues, and 2nd I was misunderstood and didn't get out quite what I was attempting to say.

All I heard about Pim was on the news. dunno much about him, or his politics. Didn't realise he was extreme, can't even spell his name!!

All I was saying was a quote by him in the news helped me to make sense of whay some things are happening in the world today.

Even if you don't agree with the stance of someone, they could still say some things which are right, and nothing to do with their views.

I don't totally throw out what someone says if I don't agree with some of what they say, if something they say is valid, I listen to it. I try to judge the validity of the particular thing that is said, not the whole person

Let me try and explain more clearly, I can't stand what Maggie thatcher did to this country, she wrecked parts of it, but that doesn't mean if she said something else, it would not have some validity.
Well I may with Maggie

 

Three Morrocans and two Indians arrested over the bombings:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3509212.stm

...looks like it wasn't ETA then

From that article aswell:

Looks like I was right earlier about the government politicizing the attack for potential electoral advantage

Michael.

 

Channel 4 News tonight was implying that a email had gone around government departments suggesting that every opportunity should be taken to place the blame on ETA.

Tony.

 

I just wonder whether they instantly blamed ETA because it is easier to blame the enemy you know. To contemplate the fact that it could have been Islamic terrorists is much more frightening. Maybe it wasnt just cynical electioneering.....

 

Let's hope the security agencies will manage to hunt for these sad cowards.

Somehow watching more the eight million people who took to the streets throughout Spain last night in a furious protest against the terrorist bombings in Madrid on Thursday feels me with pride of the decent people of that country.

Do they really think a few bombs could destroy these people and our way of life?

 

The Spanish government had a reputation for a hard line stance with ETA (popular with the electorate) and also supported Bush's unilateral attack on Iraq (deeply unpopular). It was obviously in the government's interest for the attacks to be from ETA and not what could be seen as retaliation from Muslim fundamentalists for backing Bush.

If there is any truth to the accusations that there was a direct electioneering policy to accuse ETA of the attack it will be one of the most sick and cynical things I have ever witnessed. It would be a huge insult to the incredible dignity, integrity and solidarity that the Spanish people have demonstrated after this horrific event - the street protests said more than any lame-assed government anywhere in the world ever will.

Tony.

 

Exactly. Thats why I wonder whether they may have acted a bit like rabbits caught in car headlights and took the easier option of blaming ETA. not because of a cynical electioneering reason, but because they were thrown into panic.

 

if they do turn out to be the culprits, or whoever is, what is the appropriate punishment, if there is such a one, for such a sickening atrocity, both for justice, and for deterrant?

Better it would be to be ETA, given the choice, the idea that fanatics can do this is disturbing insidious, and ominous.

 

For 800 years until 1492 Spain was under relatively enlightened Muslim rule. What followed was the Spanish Inquisition and the expulsion of the Jews. The irony is that Al Quada, and Islamic Fundamentalism in general, represent another side of that Christian driven repression rather than the enlightened tolerance of early Islam.

FWIW an Al-Queda representative explicitly linked the New York attack to the loss of Spain. It's completely consistent in their perverted mindset for them to operate there.

Paul

 

I weep for the muslims that were butchered in the name of the crusades, there must've been many innocents, all in the name of religion, and indeed Serbia, in fact any needless loss of life.

Another thing I don't understand is that if they are bombing say england, there was mass opposition to America and the war, so the 1/2 tjhe people are effectively on their side, yet we are still targets...doesn't make sense. They destroy those who share the same objections to America.

Actually, wasn't that Richard the Lionheart, my history lessons gave the impression he was a good man, maybe good men sometimes do bad things...

 

A slightly pedantic point

Well, I think that is a bit of an exageration. Iberia was partly under Muslim dominion (as you say, a rather enlightened one) but it was mostly confined to the South. The North and Northwest of Iberia were never really under the Muslims, and the Arabic culture never had a great influence there.

Now if you are talking of Sevilla and Cordoba - Andalucia - that is true.

But some Muslims seem to share your view. I used to know some Arab extremists (it was rather eery: they spoke to me as a probable victim - all Europeans should be slaughtered, I was told by one of these fellows) and they said that the Portuguese and Spanish had taken over their lands.

Now that is silly, because Iberians are really neo-latinate people - Portuguese and Castillian are the two languages that come closest to Latin - and Latin culture is clearly preponderant, with a strongish influence of Visigoths (a lowly culture compared either to Roman or Muslim culture) on the North.

So saying that Iberia was Muslim country roughly corresponds to the Danes claiming Scotland as their territory.

Nevertheless, it is true that the Muslim word may bear a grudge against Spain on these grounds.

What followed Muslim dominance was not Inquisition and the expelling of the Jews. Most of the Iberian kingdoms had expelled the Muslims centuries before the Inquisition.

This is not very important in this context, but it might be worth knowing.

 

For another perspective, read Crusades seen through Arab eyes , or even dear old Simon Sharma's "History" of Britain - Coeur de lion was not a nice man at all.
RdS, I thought the Spanish were visigoths

 

There were - the streets of Jerusalem ran red when Godfroi de Bouillion's Crusaders took it. It was indiscriminate slaughter. Of course, Crusaders did much the same thing to Constantinople some years later, ironically weakening that fellow Christian state and accelerating its fall to the Islamic forces of Sultan Mehmet II. It's both interesting and enlightening that Mehmet restored the Orthodox patriarch to his throne and the Patriarch of Constantinople remains the head of the Orthodox Church to this day - headquartered in an Islamic country. Can you imagine a "Christian" country allowing that?

P.S. It occurred to me that the motto of the Crusaders could be the answer (possibly apochryphal) of the Papal representative during the Albigensian Crusade, just prior to the storming of Béziers, when he was asked by a knight how to distinguish those of the true faith from the heretics:

"Tuez-les tous. Dieu reconnaitra les siens"

(Kill them all, God will recognise His own).

And they did - even those taking refuge in the church were slaughtered.

 

Another very good one is "Crusades" by Terry Jones (yes, THAT one) and Alan Ereira. Only a little book, but it tells the story well.

 

Voting in the Spanish elections today. Polls taken before the bombings suggested the most votes but no majority for the ruling PP (Partido Popular). If the result turns out to be radically different (eg a significant win for the socialists) it would, ironically, almost perversely, be just what the bombers wanted.

How does someone who either changes their vote or decides to vote instead of abstain as a result of the bombing reconcile that with not bowing to terrorism and not letting it affect the democratic process?

Moreover, if the Madrid bombings turn out to be "successful" in changing the Spanish government will it pave the way for similar pre-election bombings in the UK or Portugal and other "pro-war" countries?

Interesting and difficult questions which I don't have any answers for

Michael.