Mixing Solid State & Valve Amplification

Audio Valve Eklipse - It's one of those great secret gems - it's a marvellous preamp.

Think Wadia mesiter - is that Tony - has changed mind - and i agree with him![/QUOTE]

AUDIOVALVE Eklipse Pre is one special pre amp i will not be changing this in a hurry,I think it looks rather fine as well

 

I've been using a Wadia (25) direct ( -> BOW Walrus -> WB Arcs) for a couple of years.

On Friday, I picked-up a NAD S300 from Isaac and put that in place of the BOW; Wadia volume on maximum and letting the S300 handle the volume control.

Now, I know that this isn't conclusive because of using completely different power and integrated amps, but as a result of the last 48 hours I'm of the opinion that running a Wadia direct is not the best idea.

In the context of my system and trying to take account for the change in amplifiers I think the sound with the "lesser quality" integrated amp in place is more dynamic and more revealing. I do miss the grip/control that the BOW exerted though.

I initially bought the NAD as an interim solution whilst I sold the BOW, but if I cant find a buyer for the latter I think I've learnt enough over the last 48 hours to believe that the best way forward would be to use the BOW with a valve pre and run the Wadia at maximum output at all times.

 

I'll second that. A friend of mine has a Rose valve pre-amp feeding a Musical Fidelity monster ss power amp, and it sounds fantastic. Loads of grip, great bass, everything clear and clean, and plenty of body. I'm a bit jealous...

 

If you go that route, do yourself a favour and try a good passive pre as well. It should give you even more of the dynamics and revealing-ness of what you just tried, though it won't have the warmth of valves.

If you think about it, by using a valve pre-amp (or any active stage) to lower the level, you are just changing from not using the sources output at full dynamic range to not using the pre-amps output stage at full range. Though, the pre-amp is probably better designed for this. But still, a passive device will have no problems like this as it doesn't really overlay its own noise or distortion on the signal at all (at least stupidly low levels).

 

I thought the idea of the dip switches was to set the output voltage to suit the amp. Are you saying that by setting the output voltage below the maximum you are loosing resolution (in the same way as setting the digital volume at say 50/99)? I thought that it did not matter what the dip switches are set to in terms of audio quality, but I may well be wrong.

 

I second that - I think I am likely to end up using the TVC as a main pre - however the Eklipse valve is terribly good and has a seductive sound quality though different. What i like about tvc is the sound detail and ease of the music- anyway I await the dual mono version of the tvc and shall let you know what i think if you're interested!

 

Well it depends how it is designed really. If the dip-switch adds more output by switching in a second gain stage, then there is no point using it as I suggested. However, if the dip-switch controls the output level of a single gain stage simply by not asking it to amplify so much, then yes, unless you are using it at full level you are wasting the dynamic range of the output stage.

I would assume that the second way is more likely, with the dip-switch just setting the gain level of a single output stage, and as such you are better off using it at full, along with 0dB digital attenuation and then knocking it down to the level you want with a quality passive device afterwards.

 

I must admit I have no idea how the dip switches alter the output voltage, I will have to ask someone that knows.

I can understand how a valve pre may help by changing the sound. The wadia can sound a touch aggresive at times. However, if I use a pre, I would expect that I cannot just wack the dip switches up to max output as I would be restricted to using just the first part of the pre's volume range.

Does the Eklipse provide balanced connections or is it single ended?

As for using a TVC, I cannot really understand how that will help as it just attenuates. However, just because I can't understand it does not mean that it will not work, so I guess the answer is to try it out and see what it sounds like.

Thanks for the suggestions anyway.

 

...Which with an active preamp you don't want to do because you would only be using a small part of the preamps dynamic range. You are just shifting the problem from the source to the pre-amp.

So best do the job with a passive pre-amp that doesn't really have a limited dynamic range

With regards to a valve pre changing the sound being a help. My view is that if using a transparent pre-amp makes the system sound harsh then the problem is elsewhere and it is a cheap fix to cover it up with a pre-amp that has 'flavour'. I would rather remove the problem, not cover it up.

 

i also believe that a tube pre and a SS power amp is the way to go in many systems where speakers demand more current than a tube power can deliver... the only trickey thing is to really match them well so they both benefit from the combo. i didn't have too much luck when i paired ATC 20A with cary 98 preamp, only due to an impedance mismatch that results in early bass drop and lack of body. i tremendously improved in bass performance, soundstage, detail, slam and speed with EC4.7 but i still miss rather fantastic sound colour and timbre of cary pre. i had the similar experience even with a better SS pre such as pass labs X2.5 - it sounded impressive but it just couldn't match a natural tone of cary.
i have a TVC on my way, but i wouldn't be surprised if i carry on searching for a low output imp valve amp that ATCs demand.

 

has anyone tried manley shrimp with a SS power amp.

as far as i know, one of the lowest impedance tube preamps i have ever seen. 50 ohm.

 

Yes, Lautrec, I too recently went all around the houses (metaphorically) reviewing possible suitable valve amps, not least output impedances, only to decide to try a TVC in the end. Maybe we should compare notes (spreadsheet in my case) if we ever resume the search

 

Lautrec - I really (really!) didn't get on with the transformer based passives - but I'd reccomend anyone to try one. In the areas they excel...well they excel in those areas!

'detail' 'clarity' 'low noise floor'.

Best value/looks combination I've tried is the glasshouse one - it's only a few hundred quid.

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/glasshousehome.html

It's as good as the TVC one I reckon, and the price is 1/6th!


If you want an active pre-amp, that's a different matter.

I know Nick at hifi collective pretty well, he'd probably give you one on Sale Or Return if you paid postage.

 

thanks bottleneck, but my promitheus TVC is sitting with a friend of mine in vienna. i'm just trying to arrange a delivery to me.

i don't know - my experience in current system is limited but i haven't been aware before (probably due to a quality of ATCs) that preamps can make such a difference.

i tried a number of SS - mark levinson, krell, thule, pass labs and electrocompaniet and the only ones that worked well were the last two.

i tried cary 98 and EAR 834L and both were a sort of miss, cary has lots of charm, EAR was somehow uninviting. no, i didn't have a chance to roll tubes with it as i did with cary where i improved performance significantly and probably pushed it to the limits where there was a final wall - 400 ohm impedance that kills low bass and drive.
my other experience include tube preamps such as korato, BAT and eklipse (i recommended it to larkrise) but not in this system.
a general conclusion is they are highly dependant on matching, especially products from more specialist and exotic manufacturers - they can sound brilliant and they can sound horrid. absolutely i can't buy any preamp without a trial anymore, i did too many mistakes even when all the numbers look as if they fit.
anyone tried manley shrimp?

 

I have been auditioning a valve pre and ss power amp. The pre is an artemis Labs LA-1 (which uses 2 x 5687's) and the power amp is an Avondale 260z (90 watts). The combination sounds really great other than the noise floor- there is a bit too much hiss

The hiss is surprising because the artemis labs is a low noise, medium gain design (12 dbl maximum gain) and the power amp is not overly sensitive at about 1.25 volts. The culprits are the speakers (large Tannoys DMTs) which are about 96dbl sensitive. I tried swapping the artemis labs for an active solid state pre as well as a TVC and there was no hiss at all from either (partnered to the Avondale and Tannoys). Obviously the artemis labs has too much gain. I will need to find an alternative lower gain valve pre which is a shame because the Artemis LAbs is a great pre. That said, I should really try a different pair of 5687s just in case I have faulty valves.

http://www.artemislabs.com/LA-1-vacuum-tube-preamp.html

http://www.avondaleaudio.com/

 

B - that is a problem I have , my speakers are also about 97db.

This is supposed to be V quiet, and I'd love one.

I have the original Basie, and this new one is supposed to be as good/better but quiet as a mouse.

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_basie.htm

 

B, it could be wonderfully transparent and blissfully quiet but it's a risk spending that sort of money (even with the great dollar rate) without knowing for sure- because who the hell would buy it off me if I didn't like it? I was on the verge of ordering the Diyhifisupply Cole valve phono stage a few months ago (on the strength of recommendations from Thorsten and one other ZG member) but pulled out at the last minute because I couldn't risk spending over a grand (you need to factor in import duty) on something all the way from Hong Kong. Even if they agreed to take it back, shipping both ways plus duty would be too expensive an audition. Maybe a few of us could somehow pull together and buy one?