More Vinyl Newbie questions

If it's just in one channel (or is obviously worse in one channel) then it's almost certainly an anti-skating issue. The easiest way to check anti-skating is set right is to use a test record. I have the HFN test record, which is good. Also has a nice alignment protractor. You're welcome to borrow it.

Dunc

 

yeah , set the anti skate to zero. I actually removed the anti skate device completely from mine - but it is a unipivot and therefore very sensitive.

 

Well, ther clearly was an anti skating issue ... but of course it may not be the only issue. If the problem persists even after adjusting antiskate then ...

 

On a Pro-ject try taking the little fishing weight thing off and see if that makes a difference.

 

Tried the weight off... no difference on records.

Got a loan of Duncan's HFN test record .... firstly the cartridge seems aligned ok according to the protractor.

But the tracking test tracks give a clear buzzing in right hand channel.

No amount of adjusting the anti-skating makes a difference to this.

The first bias check track works OK, but 2nd, 3rd and 4th all buzz. 3rd and 4th in both channels. Again no adjustment seems to fix this.

looking very carefully at the cartridge, it seems that its azimuth is slight angled down to left (looking from front). Tried to adjust azimuth on the tonearm - made almost impossible by the fact that the screw is directly under the anti-skating pole - but there is not enough adjustment available to compensate.

Hmmm..... so could be bad cartridge?

Any suggestions for an easily available high-output MC to try?

Or should I give MM a shot? Will the lesser amplification requirements for MM result in less noise from 2nd hand vinyl?

TBH I'm worried about throwing good money after bad here.

 

Alan,

I have an Ortofon MC3 Turbo High Output MC (there's a run down here: http://www.needles-and-spins.co.uk/pd_ortofon_mc3.cfm), which I was going to use to replace the nasty NAS tracer I've got on my office system. Its 3.3mv output, so MM level. Its about the same league as the MC15. I'll loan it to you for a couple of weeks if you want to see, if you are willing to pay postage there and back. At least you'll see if its a cartidge issue. Wouldn't mind your view on it either as I've never heard one, but have quite liked all the HO MCs I've heard so far.

 

That would be excellent, many thanks . I'll email you directly about the arrangements.

 

No worries.

It has a fine line stylus, unlike the elliptical on the MC15, so there is a chance that it'll cope with worn vinyl better (in my experience they can ... depending on how worn the vinyl is, and just how the wear came about). Fine lines, Micro Ridge, Fritz Geiger etc. styli are however more critical in terms of setup re alignment and VTA, but you have the HFN record which will help.

 

It's a very nice sounding cart, I had one until I knocked it's arm off
It's funny Uncle but I've always found fine lines noisy compared to the out of the ark Denon I use now. I was running the Shure V15XMr or whatever it's called and it picked up every click and pop, the Denon is excellent in that regard. They do track better though.

 

Ah thats deep dirt in the grooves ...imo

 

Could be right. My observation about Fine Lines et al, actually came from the V15VxMR I used to use (which I found quite quiet) - in fact I loved that cart - wish I hadn't duffed the cantilever.

I've got quite a few old Beatles albums - original yellow parlophone pressings - very nice and clearly loved and looked after- clean too by the looks - except the only problem is they have definite wear related distortion to the end of sides - played ragged on a worn out old Dansette tracking at 5g I'll bet. With an Ortofon 510 (elliptical) it was quite obvious, with a 530 (fine line) less so, with the V15 (Micro Ridge) it was still there but virtually disappeared and with a Denon DL-160 ("Special" elliptical ie. somewhere in between elliptical and fine line) it was better than the 530, but not as good as the V15.
The speculation was that if the wear had been caused by a big fat worn out spherical then the wear pattern would be in one specific part of the groove, at the point of contact. Play it with a Micro Ridge or similar and it would then be playing deeper down
in the groove and effectively playing an unworn (or less worn) part of the groove.

The fact that the DL-160 is better in this respect than the fine line 530 suggests there may be more to it than just the profile though. I'm running in a Rondo Blue at the mo - and that's got a Fritz Geiger 70 stylus - I'll have to give that whirl with "With the Beatles" and see how that fares.

PS. just gave it a spin with both the DL-160 and the Rondo Blue - the Blue fared better than the DL-160.

 

Alan,

It'll be with you tomorrow.

One hint when fitting. It doesn't look as nice, but its a lot easier to setup. Rather than putting the screws into the headshell pointing down and struggling to get the nuts on from the bottom. Try it the other way with the screws into the cart pointing up and then put the nuts on from the top. Makes no diff sound wise.

All the best

Tony

 

Been a long day.... working at home today so got to play more with this setup.

Uncle Ants's loaner MC3 turbo cartridge arrived first thing so tried it out. According to the protractors with the HFN test disc I had it perfectly aligned, also had to increase the arm height slightly to get the tone arm parallel.....

Hmmm, the cartridge tracking tests failed miserably, if anything worse than the MC15. Can't believe this is dud cartridge and its brand new. Checked it all again and tried some music.... again audible distortion on loud passages.

What's going on?.... I'm getting desperate now so popped down to nearest hifi shop and bought an ortofon 520 mk2 MM cart.

Attached it, aligned it, adjusted VTA again (arm has to go on absolute lowest setting for this cart), set weight etc..... all HFN disc tests pass fine - tracking good at beginning, middle and end of side, Bias adjustments good except for tiny buzz on the 4th bias test track (which the disc instructions tell you not to worry about because if it can do the 3rd bias test everything is fine).

Start playing some music... Dvorak 6th/LSO/Kertesz on a 20 year old Decca LP... Glorious. A few crackles here and there but nothing annoying. No trace of distortion anywhere.

Followed by brand new Speakers Corner DG Shostakovich 10th/Karajan/BPO (1966 recording)... Wow, this is has something more than the same CD on my not very cheap cd player. I might be beginning to see what the fuss about vinyl is.

So a mystery remains... could the brand new MC3 cartridge really be a duffer? doubtful. is there some kind of magnetic interference with MC carts that an MM cart isn't bothered by?

The platter on the Xpression is non-magnetic, checked this with fridge magnets. But my wall shelf (Apollo) is.

Any other ideas? I will try Tony's MC3 cartridge again just to sanity check my alignment once more.

Anyway, at least now I'm enjoying some good music via the turntable. And much gratitude to Tony (Uncle Ants) for the cartridge loan, and lots of help and ideas via email throughout the day.

 

Duff phono stage? Or have you been there already?

 

I doubt it.... the results I was getting were exactly what the HFN test disc instructions said would come from cartridge alignment problems.

Playing music on the 2 MC carts was OK most of the time, but problems were most noticeable at dynamic peaks and end-of-side.

Also significant is that the ortofon MC3 is a high output MC (3.3mV i think), and uses same setting on the phono stage as an MM cartridge.

 

Cheap turntable/expensive carts == mechanical mismatch. Or perhaps the arm bearings are loose?

Paul

 

Its a bit of a mystery this one Paul, these aren't expensive carts - less than £150 in each case - true the compliance on the MC3 and MC15 are lower than the 520, but they aren't low. The figures work and the symptoms aren't what you would expect from a resonance issue anyway.

Also its not a bad arm either - its not an SME V no , but its in the same league as say an RB250. I suppose there is a possibility the bearings are loose, but then if they were that loose you might expect the same trouble from the 520. (Alan you might give the arm a gentle wiggle back and forth and in a rotary manner - gentle If there is any "clicking" or movement which shouldn't be there, you maybe need your bearings adjusting)

Duff phono stage has been considered, but the 520 works fine and the MC3 it seems doesn't - they have an ouput of 3mV and 3.3Mv respectively, so I think we can scratch that.

Had an email chat with Alan yesterday - given that the problem seems to be the same with the MCs but not the MM. a magnetic platter was considered (it shouldn't be on an Xpression and this case it definitely isn't - he checked).

The other thought was the digital scale he's using. Turns out it is a little magnetic (fridge magnets will stick to it).

This might explain it, as a balance which is magnetic would exert a stronger pull on an MC than an MM and could result in a much lower VTF than the gauge is reading (assuming whatever is magnetic is underneath the scale's mechanism). Its speculation, but lets imagine that the metal in the gauge is enough to put it out by say 1g - that might be small enough not to notice anything odd when measuring it - but that would be enough for the MC3 when set to 2g (in the middle of its recommended VTF) to actually be tracking at 1g - i.e. 0.8g lower than the recommended minimum.

What would happen if you did this? Well ... you would get audible distortion due to mistracking during loud passages most probably (among other things).

Both the MC3 and the MC15 might be duff, but I'd doubt it in the case of the MC3 - it was box fresh - never been used. I suppose there is a chance of a faulty from new cart, but that's pretty rare. Still wouldn't be surprised if the MC15 is a duffer though.

 

Have moved things a bit further on....

I tried the original MC15 again yesterday afternoon, setting the downforce using the gauge on the arm (setting it to zero, then adjusting). I checked the accuracy of this by blu-tacking a lollipop stick to the electronic scales, setting them to zero, then measuring the downforce on the stylus on the wooden stick, about 2-3 inches away from the scales. It was spot-on accurate. (I have tested this method gives the same readout with and without wooden stick with the MM 520 cartridge!)

Ok, the MC15 once setup and aligned according to the HFN protractor, was still failing badly. Only by increasing the downforce to 2.6g (from recommended 2.0g) was I able to get it to pass the HFN disc alignement tests. But still sounded pretty rough playing music, again especially towards the end of side.

Have been trying the MC3 again this morning.... again set it using zero-balance method and tested with the scales + stick. Alignement good according to the protractor. But I just can't get it to sound right on the HFN test disc at all. No amount of fiddling with downforce or bias is helping on all three of the alignement test tracks. If anything this appears worse than the MC15.

So now have reverted to the MM 520 .... everything fine, all HFN tests passed and sounding good. Even the last tracks on the problematic Interpol LP are playing fine with no trace of distortion on the RH channel which was so evident before.

I don't understand the problem with the MC3.... unless it is a duffer or I've somehow managed to damage it

 

Well stick with the 520 for now and enjoy it.

If you send the MC3 back I can give it a whirl - the MC15 too. No worries if the MC3 is duff - its under warranty after all .

I do like a mystery, but we'll get to the bottom of it I'm sure.

 

For me its sounds more like a problem with mc stage ...could bear further examination.

don't realy too much on the test tracks ...I've had cheap cra* carts pass them all but sound vile whilst expensive highends fall at first or second track.

have you though about high ouput mc like dynavector 10x5 could be the best of both worlds?