My feelings about the Heathrow show

Bub, just thought that maybe the reason your system works so well is because the ATCs are accurately reproducing your sources which are not very accurate but are very musical?

 

I think that music should sound, um, musical, for want of a better word.

This includes everything - emotion, humour, etc etc.

These things MUST be on the recording to start with if we can pick up on them. A system that misses them out/glosses over them is, um, not musical, and therefore not accurate.





Hi Alex, simultaneous posting. I don't really know, tbh, but the "Cor-Ten" recording Alan did suggested that the system as a whole (excluding the turntable & tuner) is pretty accurate. I think...

 

Do you use Mana by any chance? I've heard these sorts of descriptions elsewhere

 

Hi,

No, the polar opposite in supports in many (most) ways.

At the show we actually used Ikea Corras spiked to the floor for most stuff.

Ciao T

 

Hi,

BTW, speaking of accuracy, just for fun I measured the system response in the actual hotel room.

I found we got 20Hz-10KHz +/-5db with a gentle topend rolloff at the "best seat" for each side (L/R) using pink noise 1/6 octave averaged, without any obvious frequency response trends (tilts etc) in the flat area. The RT60 was a bit high but not excessive, around 0.3 - 0.4 seconds in the midrange with only a minor rise at lower frequencies (a side-effect of using dipoles is a nearly flat RT60).

For the rest of the gear, despite valves and transformers we have low/very distortion and wide frequency response on all the equipment in the chain, even the speakers are FAIRLY low distortion devices (compared to many other "HiFi" Speakers anyway).

Unlike some of the systems I prefer personally (eg SE Valve Amp's, Tannoy 15" Coaxial loaded horns, Goodmans Axiom 80) in technical terms the system has a pretty clean bill of health, with no obvious deviations from "neutrality" in the ways they are traditionally quantified by measurements, not that this matters much with respect to subjective sonics.

Ciao T

 

If I knew what it was, I'd be earning my fortune in the hifi biz!

 

Very simple answer here, and Robbos' already given it,
Total immursement in the sound being generated by the system, the ability to let slip into the music unhindered, with out fuss or even worry about taking a piss.!!!
Price here again is no garantee of success, most *not all* high end system, cannot preform this single task. despite costing 10's of £K's
I have a few Clients who systems run into Titian stylee' systems, they are constantly chasing the golden sonic dragon.(its there progative)
Just spot the number of ad's on Audiogon/hifi for sale, of *Just run in superb sounding, best I've ever had/AA++++if thats the case why sell it then?
Simple it just don't fit in the system its been attacthed too, depite being touted as the latest *Dogs danglies*
Every good system I've heard has 2 traits, that do seem like a mutual partnership
Musical cohesion & some form colouration (from what ever source/electronics/room/speakers).
Maybe not 100% tonal accuracy, or grand canyon depth, bass to shake the foundations or a 3d limitess holographic image.
Just plain involving and musical, that keeps you wanting to listen to it, disc after disc, or record after record.
IMO total netruality and all out accuracy are a pathway to unhappiness in the audio world.

 

This is most interesting observation. It does put things in perspective. The noise produced by life musicians or instruments sound instinctively more pleasant even from a distant compare to the recorded stuff reproduced from any systems heard within the room. If suggest the room acoustics are not the problem. Maybe the present recording and playback technique is.

 

Bloody hell, find Titians post has turned into slanging before I can even post anything.

As Titians listening stooge I'd first like to thank him for making the show entertaining and allowing me to something I haven't done in years and that is try and give every room a good listen too.

Just for the record the Mac room was using Dali Helikon 300 standmounts. The guy running the room was as rude as I have met and I'm sure Mac would love me to quote him when he said 'Of course the TT's better, the cd player is crap and I've only got it because people want to play cd'. I also thought the Mac room was very good and if there was any extra warmth I didn't detect it either.

Hey Thorsten, I liked your room. I felt it conveyed the feeling of music very well, although a bit to warm and indistinct in detail. Not a critisism as I would rather have musical enjoyment over warts'n'all detail.

The Metronome/Lamm room was spoilt by the speakers. The music never escaped the plane of the speakers and I felt I was listening to a concert from the upper Circle.

The Metronome smear was very wierd. On some Opera as the vocalist moved up and down the scale her voice moved across the sound stage.

Both horn rooms (Ferguson Hill, using Marantz cd17KI/Audio Note DAC1.1/own brand amps, and the Avantgarde room, forgotten TT/Lindemann cdp and Tron pre/power, did what horns do well. Make a wonderful meal out of everything. What I mean is everything is 12 foot high and wide, totally involving and as far from monitor speakers as you can get. Did I like them, you bet I did.

The Art Audio room sounded better on the first day when run from the 300b PP monoblocks. I felt the Diavalo was straining a bit. For the record the Bandors and run from -3db at 65Hz to -3db at 12kHz IIRC with extra woofer and tweeter for bass and treble.

The TAct room was perplexing and I wasn't sure things were set-up correctly. Either that or the other two rooms we heard the Zorn played in weren't correct. What I mean was that Zorns sax and Douglas trumpet were amourphous and almost appeared to be on the wrong channels. I'm so tempted to take a test disk with me and ask them to play it. I wonder how many room do check out channel and phase? I just felt the TACT room had something wrong. Having said that PF live was pretty good.

Regarding the Emotive Excellence £60,000 speakers (oh wow a price drop). As speakers go they make excellent plant pot stands, nuff said.

Here is suprise to a few people. I enjoyed the Naim SL2 room. I felt the sound was maybe a bit brightly lit for me to live with but as sounds go it was one of the better ones at the show. I do wish more companies made speaker that can go up against a wall without being near corners as well.

My favourite rooms were
47 Labs. It just had a free and easy sound to everything that put a smile on my face. Still not convinced of the VFM of their kit. I've made a clone of their Gaincard. It + PSU retails for a tad under £3000. My clone cost about £80. I'm not saying it sounds as good, but as far as VFM goes it's good.

Revolver. Probably one of the cheapest rooms at the show. Exposure cdp, nice Nightingale valve amp and their Standmount (R33 I think, better in the room than the floorstanders) Enjoyable sound, no fuss or pretence it just worked.

So it's the What HiFi show in Nov, whose for that?

 

.

 

Now you're talking.

Shame Tannoy dont make GRF's and Autographs anymore.

 

Lee,

the problem seems to be that most people seemed to think this was the "What HFi?" show

Me thinks you have a good ear or two BTW.

 

Here's the thing though: I really enjoy listening to live music - unsurprisingly, it's considerably better than any hifi system I've ever heard. So if my system were more accurate, it would be correspondingly more enjoyable.

 

I think the thing is Pete, all hifi systems are compromised in some way or another, and I'd rather have a set of compromises that dont stop me from enjoying the music. No hifi systems are truly accurate anyway, despite what anybody says.

 

hmmm, I feel like sitting on the proverbial fence on the live/accurate /involvinging/enjoyment/all the above argument.

All I'd like to add - any 'amplified concert I've been to (90% of all concerts at a guess btw) leave me cold on sound quality terms - I still enjoy them big time. Heres the rub - you can attempt to reproduce 'accurately' what was intended by the performer - but you will NEVER reproduce the atmosphere - and dont start with that multi channel shite having people coughing in the background!

That said, I prefer music I enjoy with all the bangs and whistles the recoring engr wanted - but funnily enough most of my fave CDs are 'live' versions......maybe you can re-create atmosphere?

This fence is a pain in the ass

 

What a mess....

.... what started as a very interesting unbiased view of the london show seems to have deteriated into a slanging match about what sound is true anyway, this is the type of talk that slowly turns good forums like this into rec.audio. please don't let that happen.

Chris.

 

I thought it was an interesting discussion. Wouldnt it be rather boring if everyone thought the same?

 

Yes, I agree and that bores me already.

 

I'd agree, but then I've only ever been to about three amplified concerts in my life. By and large I've always felt that live pop music is much more about the "experience" than the music per se, and the sound quality can often be pretty poor (especially when some guy next to you is pogoing madly and screaming in your ear). Most people would consider it a boring gig where everyone sat and really contemplated the music rather than jumping about and singing along, but then I'm not most people. :lol:

Of course, live acoustic music - which for me means classical - is a different kettle of fish altogether, and this is the background I'm coming from with the 'accuracy' thing.

Fine and agreed, but for me the next upgrade is always likely to be about getting closer to 'accurate' - we can try to get the best approximation we can even if we can't get it perfect. I just don't see that 'accurate' means 'boring' or 'lifeless' - if it does, I'd suggest you're listening to the wrong music.

 

Chris,

with all due respect, taking any meaning whatsoever from Titian's comments would IMO be misguided. Whilst I really do apreciate Titian's efforts, it has to be said that just about every criticism levelled could be simply the result of the appalling rooms used for shows like Heathrow. You really need to try setting up yourself to fully grasp just how far removed these enviroments are from your domestic listening room. They are really bad, and the only way to tame some of the nasty results is to play simple musc at relatively low levels.

The most useful thing about shows is the opportunity to meet the people concerned and to see the kit. Any attempts to perform critical listening in show conditions is sadly a waste of time.

If you want to read some thing that is superficially interesting but flawed then I accept that the following debate is a distraction. But if you want to hear the thoughts of those who have been around the block in the hifi world, then the course can prove quite enlightning.

this is not your typical hifi site! But having said that, the banter is generally good natured and I find the level of knowledge here CAN be quite eye opening on occasions.

Welcome anyway!