Naim AV2/NAPV175 etc.

Be interested to know people's opinions on the AV2 as I'm seriously considering one as a replacement for my Tag AV32R (96hHz version). Nothing wrong with the Tag and it could be upgraded with an analogue bypass (which I want) and go to 7.1 (which I'm not bothered about at the moment) but it would cost me less to sell it and buy another processor (such as the Naim) which has all this stuff already.

I've no doubt of the stereo abilities of the AV2 but I'm a little worried that it won't be as good as the Tag when it comes to DD/DTS processing. Any thoughts on this? A dealer I was speaking to reckons the AV2 would actually have the edge on the 96kHz Tag for movies but then he sells Naim.

Then there's the amps. I'd probably end up going with Naim amps if I got an AV2 (for ease of connection, synergy of sound etc). The NAPV175 and a Nap150 would seem to be the ones to go for – nice neat solution and a further NAP150 could be used if I went 7.1.

What's slightly bothering me is the power output – I know not to take too much notice of watts but I currently use a big Rotel THX power amp (110x5) which, although not perhaps the most subtle operator, can certainly deliver the goods when I want to watch a movie with the sound up fairly high. I'm just a little worried that a NAPV175/NAP150 isn't going to be able to provide the kind of drive that AV requires.

Comments would be very much appreciated - front speakers are MA Gold Ref 10's/centre – rears are currently (difficult to drive) KEF THX dipoles which I'll replace with MA Gold FX's when I get a chance (and there's obviously a large sub in the room).

Thanks,

Matt.

 

Hey Matt, I used to run a Rotel 991 and a 993 in my old HC setup and you're right - nothing touches the Rotels when it comes to that low end power handling in Home Cinema. They're not the smoothest for music (still damn good though) but are practically bullet proof when it comes to all things dynamic.

I recently downgraded the HC to a Pioneer VSX2011 Integrated and, as good as it is, I still shed a tear that my Rotels have gone.

IMO the AV2 will give you good DD/DTS processing. It's no Lexicon but the music side should be an improvement over the slightly 'laid-back' (IMO) voicing of the TAG. I'd go for a demo of the AV2 with the Rotels just to garner some opinion.

If music is your bag then the NAP's may be more preferable but there are plenty of alternatives out there .

 

matt,
the thing to remember about naim amps is that they have very 'stiff' power supplies that don;t wilt when the going gets tough. i.e. an amp that measures 100wpc into a steady 8ohm load but has a wobbly psu will start to deliver less power into 6, 4, or 2 ohm loads that can be presented by speakers at different frequencies. i had no trouble running a pair of b&w cdm 7 nt's from a 30wpc nait 5 in both music and av scenarios. as to naims ability to process dd/dts in most reviews it's been well recieved as on a par / slightly better than the tag i believe naim use a standard dsp board from motorola but don;t quote me on that. i'd still say have a listen to the naim and see what you think.
cheers


julian

 

I'll pretty much go along with what's already been said.

The AV2 is definitely one of the more boppy processors out there. I tried comparing it's stereo capability against a CD5 last year (using the AV2 as a stereo pre-amp), and frankly couldn't tell a lot of difference, so it's pretty hand in stereo mode at least.
I have no experience with it as an AV processor, but understand that it is good stuff, and at least on par with your TAG for sound quality (if you like the presentation).

Julian is dead right about the amp capabilities. I've used my kabers on both music and movies for over a year now. These are most certainly not the easiest speakers in the world to drive (3 way units), yet my Nait 5 has seemingly had no problems at all, so I would assume that a 150 would be more than capable of doing the business.
On top of that, Naim equipment does hold it's value well, so if you find an AV2 and power amps second hand and decide that they're either not for you, or you want to upgrade them, you won't lose anything like the amount of cash you can on some gear.

 

Matt,

all I will say is that the AV2, like all thing Naim, is it seems characterful and you will either love it or hate it. I still laugh about the dem at Bristol, when starting the DVD cleared the room in 10 seconds flat. For me (and do bear in mind they were using Naim "speakers"), it was the most unpleasent experience of the show.

But you may well love the Naim sound, only you can find out. But for me, from what I hear, Naim majors on pace rythmn and timing in a musical sense. I am not so sure this is important when watching Lord Of The Rings.

Surround sound steering will be no better than the likes of Onkyo or Sherwood, in fact, the former's application of L7 probably insures that they edge it. Anyway, just get a listen to it and see.

 

Now that does surprise me as I heard clear benefits in steering speed/placement when moving up from a £650 Rotel RSP966 up to the Tag AV32R. On top of this, the Rotel was notably better than the Yamaha DSP A5 (used as pre/pro only) which they lent me when the Rotel was being fixed.

Anyway, that aside, many thanks for the comments - as you say I need to have a listen to the AV2. Strangely enough though, I have given someone a price for both my Tag & my Rotel power amp and, if he were to buy them, this would pretty much force me down the Naim route i.e. I'd go and buy the AV2 and NAPV175 - the NAP150 for the rears would have to wait.

If this happens you'll probably see a thread from me begging for the loan of a cheap 2 channel power amp!

Matt.

 

merlin, you're just trying to wind up the Naimees again aren't you? "No better than an Onkyo"? Give me a break!

The AV2 will easily be on a par with the Tag AV32R in the DD/DTS processing / steering department. It's actually a processor that's always been on my "if I had £5K to blow on home cinema" shortlist. One of the things that really attracts me to it is that is has no video switching at all. I wish that more processors would bin the video switching part as IMO not many people need it.

A while back HFN did a review of the AV2 vs the Tag AV30R and I think the Rotel RSP-1066 or Cyrus AV8 - can't remember which, and the AV2 walked it. They suggested that even the better Tag AV32R would have struggled to beat the AV2.

Also, the AV2 just looks so cool. Compared to the Blackpool Illuminations that is the front panel of many of today's AV procs the AV2 just exudes understated cool. It's certainly one piece of Naim kit that I lust after

Michael.

 

Actually Michael I'm not! Really!!!

I am not questioning that the AV2 will be the most musical of the options, provided you like the Naim house sound. But there is no proprietry software that I know of, the processing is standard OEM kit as found on fairly budget Jap stuff.

Does software matter I hear you say! One listen to a movie soundtrack through even a Lexicon DC1 will tell you yes, as will the Meridian 568 and Tag. The smoothness of transition from one channel to another is clearly superior to my ears, creating a more realistic ambience. Logic 7, as used by Lexicon, Onkyo and Levinson is quite superb on movies, even on music it competes favourably with PL11.

Now the Naim's attention to analogue electronics will ensure that it's overall quality is excellent (again with the caveat!), but stearing and soundstage creation is nothing to write home about IMO.

 

Merlin

In all honesty do you know that, unequivocably? I know the hardware isn't OEM, so why should the software be so?

If not, then why do you continue to perpetuate your anti-Naim stance, despite your 'open letter' ?

Christ, Naim even write the control software for their CDP's mechanism, unlike 99% of manufacturers, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they also wrote the code for the AV2 too, but I do not know this.

Why don't you email them and ask, then we can all know the truth, FWIW?

Puzzled,

Andy.

 

Andrew,

If you read my post, it is not anti Naim, just stating facts. The Motorola chip used for DSP work in the AV2 is old technology. If Naim had written proprietry software, I would expect them to advertise the fact as any other commercially minded manufacurer does.

I am sure if you listen to a Lexicon and AV2 side to side you will understand. What processors have you owned BTW?

editted to add this which I have just found courtesy of "Audiophile and AV"

Seems I'm not the only one "Naim Bashing"

 

But it isn't, is it?

So lack of information is proof, is it?

The rest of your argument may well have validity in terms of the steering stuff, but is off-topic for the purposes of my issue.

I'm ill-equipped to judge, since I don't 'do' home cinema.

My purpose was to point out you claim to not be Naim-bashing anymore, yet present your 'educated guess' as 'fact'.

None, see above

"The reason we hold truth in such respect is because we have so little opportunity to get familiar with it."

Mark Twain

 

Exactly Andrew but you still feel qualified to take me to task for IMHO a very well eductated guess.

I'll tell you what, if anyone can prove to me that Naim have written their own proprietry surround decoding software (that enhances the standard steering found on the Motorola chip), then I will gladly give them £100 worth of accessories of my choice.

Until then, please believe me that this is not Naim bashing, I have agreed that from a musical persective (Naim stylee!), the AV2 almost certainly punches above it's weight. What it does not do is bring anything new to the DSP arena. Having owned Lexicon, Meridian and Tag, along with Sony, Pioneer, Rotel, Theta and Acurus, I would hope that I have a small understanding of what GOOD proprietry software can achieve.

 

But that wasn't what you orginally stated!

You previously stated: -

"But there is no proprietry software that I know of, the processing is standard OEM kit as found on fairly budget Jap stuff."

That's not what you've just posted, there's no mention of steering in your original statement at all. Does your £100 offer still stand if I can prove Naim wrote any 'proprietary software' for any of the processing in the AV2 ?

I'm perfectly qualified to take you to task over the facts, my home cinema experience is irrelevant here. There seems to be plenty of people who agree with you with regard to the steering issue, but that is not my point.

I'm not defending Naim here, just the truth. If you want to be seen as not Naim-bashing, some more careful consideration of your words would be appropriate.

Andy.

 

Andy,

I know your credentials and respect them. Maybe my original post could have used a little more clarity but, you seem to have possibly taken things out of context. The quote you lifted was followed by

The original post contained the following

So my thinking is that I spelt out my reservations. I do apologise if I didn't spell thing out clearly enough for you.

 

No probs!

It may be just because I don't do AV that I took your post out of context, anyway, I should go to bed...

Andy.

 

merlin,
just to be pedantic, the dsp's used in the tag's (a sharc i believe) is also 'old technology'. in the grand scheme of things decoding dd and dts is not processor intensive these days, i'm sure that some mobile phones could manage it if they had the memory and weren't bunged up with all that making calls malarkey.
the other thing is that the lexicon costs anywhere between 2 and 4 times as much as the naim and is backed by the harmann group i believe so hardly a fair comparison, in fact it's a feather in naims cap that you are even making the comparison.
cheers


julian

 

I wonder just how "pedantic" you and other would be if I were criticising Meridian for poor channel steering It's just the kind of reaction one would expect from Naimees, and damned good reason to go back on the offensive. Why can't the sheep accept any criticism of Salisbury product gracefully, even when it is obvious that it is valid! Ceasefire over I'm afraid, you guys really are brainwashed.

How I laughed when I read how many Naim owners simply buy the kit blind, believing everything they read! BAAAAA!!!!

On the original subject, as I am sure you are aware Julian, the DSP chip in the Tag ( now upgraded to dual processor configuration) is merely a storage medium for the decoding software written in house and sent to THX for testing and approval. Naim simply buy in a cheap DSP in the same way that many small companies do. Hardly state of the art - still if you must have the pace rythmn and timing thing, and do not watch many movies, I'm sure it will please.

 

Oh dear - I put "Naim" in the thread title and look what happens.

In defence of Merlin - I don't think he's specifically having a go at Naim as I was asking his opinion of the (£2.9K) Classe SSP30 MKII processor via PM's and his view was/is that, like the AV2, the Classe unit also uses off the shelf processing chips.

And what's been said kind of sums up my worries - there's no doubting Naim or Classe's musical credentials (which may well be better than my Tag's) - on the movie side though it may well be a different story and that's what makes me think I might be better replacing it (if I do sell it) by a newer "BP-192" version of the Tag AV32R (which would give me the bypass I crave plus better music and movie sound due to the improved DAC's).

Thanks for all your input anyway - it's now down to me to let my ears decide and I will report back when I've done so.

Matt.

 

Matt,

If you're looking for the best movies and music performance under 4-5K, get yourself a Meridian 568.2 and forget about all the other manufacturer's products, it's that simple!

If you have money to burn, get yourself the new G series processor or if you have even more money to burn, get yourself the 861.

Meridian make the best processors available today, and that's a FACT!

FS

 

:ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc: I guess absolutism still rules regardless of allegience!