New digital front end

Hello,

My two choices are:

1) Sim Moon Eclipse. I've always liked Sim Moon sound, although I have no experience with the Eclipse, and probably it's a little beyond my financial reach. But a true multibit machine nonetheless;

2) CEC TL51x (new entry level transport)/DX71 combo. No experience with this combo either but it matches my price constraints. One problem though, I'm very reluctant about delta-sigma/bitstream converters.

All I know is that for a bitstream decoder to be able to match the
amplitude time-related resolution (and that's what music is all about) of say
a good multibit red-book CD system, you would need a fs equal to 2^16 * 44.1kHz = 2.89GHz. No way you can have it with modern technology. All delta-sigma implementations that I know of sound lifeless to me compared with their multibit counterparts. They are by nature slew-rate limited, and although they do not have an absolute amplitude limit, the permissible signal amplitude falls at 6dB per octave. In order to have equal resolution you'll need to double the sample rate for every extra bit in the multibit code. Sure they measure better, have greater low-level resolution and detail but not the same dynamic contrasts or... MUSIC, if you will.

How do they compare?

 

Hi and welcome to the forum,

As a former Eclipse owner, I can certainly vouch for it's quality. I have not heard a better all rounder and it has the bonus of a decent PS meaning that it doesn't really need any tweaking to sound superb. Closer to the old classic multibit sound of the CD7 and the like than many alternatives. It can be had for under £3K by carefully purchasing used fform the States if that interests you.

Can't comment on the CEC as I have not tried one, but would suggest listening to the Resolution Audio Opus 21 as well. A fine player.

 

As a current owner, like wot he said above. I think its a superb player both in terms of sound and build quality You wont go far wrong with one.

 

i've heard both - there's not a huge amount in it. i'll post more later but i've got to go now...
cheers


julian

 

Hello Vasco, nice to see you on the forum practising your English

You know my views on both machines. I was very impressed with the Eclipse when I heard it in Robbo's system. However, I was also pretty impressed with the CEC we heard that day at Delmax. It blew the much more expensive Copland 288 (I think it was) out of the water.

If I were you I wouldn't get worried about the technical implementations and whether something is delta-sigma or multibit. IMO there's no technical reason why one should sound better than the other. Nearly all multibit DACs do oversampling of some kind just to make the brick wall filter easier to implement. Bitstream is merely taking this to the logical extreme.

You should listen to a Naim CDP, you might be surprised

So, has anyone bought your DAC64 yet? If you put it on here it will sell very quickly One of these days you'll learn where you went wrong there. Anything after the DAC64 can only be a downgrade

Michael.

 

ok back now. i heard the sim in an edge amp / sonata speaker and the cec in an advantage / thiel system (although i did hear it in an edge system briefly) so the sim had the advantage as it were.
as i said there wasn't a lot in it both were amongst the best cd replay i've ever heard but the cec is significantly less money so that would be the one i'd go for. (also the dac has a volume control and multiple inputs so another added bonus). if i had to split them i'd say that the sim was the more rhythmic of the two but the cec had better texture and separation. both put a really big smile on my face when i heard them though so the differences are minimal.

either of them absolutely murdered the naim cdx2 (and i'm a naimie) so unless you want to spend loads on a cds3...
cheers


julian

 

You know your hankering after a dac 64, why waste time on anything else?

 

47 Labs Shigaraki, obviously. *

-- Ian

* This will be my standard answer to every question for the forseeable future.

 

ian,
i need something to place my gauche dax-2 on what would be the best support to use?
cheers


julian

 

I don't do stand wars, but I'd recommend covering it in clay and sticking it into a red hot kiln for an hour or so. It'll almost look like a Shigaraki then, and it'll sound better than it does at the moment too.

-- Ian

 

I'm sorry Ian but this looks like an address

the hifi company
47 labs Shigaraki
Tokyo
Japan

 

Have you ever heard of Mana?

 

So what do you plaice (sic) a 47 Labs transport on then?

 

Audiophile grade polished pebbles, I think.

 

Welcome BerylliumDust!

The Sim Moon Eclipse was also on my shortlist for a new digital front end and I was given a very convincing demo at Robbo's.

I had the Moon Eclipse on extended loan in my system for a week and was able to compare it with an Accustic Arts CD Player 1 (another contender - UK price £3750).

They are both fine players with a first class build quality but differ in presentation. In my system I found the Sim had a very up front dynamic quality to it with bags of detail and imaging. It was my preferred CD player out of the two. The Accustic Arts was more laid back with excellent soundstaging and a refined delivery.

I also intended to audition an Audio Aero Capitole II but never got the opportunity.

I also had a listen to a Wadia 861 before making my selection.

I was amazed that within a week I saw advertised on Hififorsale.com an Accustic Arts CD Player 1 being offered for £2200, an Audio Aero Capitole II for £2100 and a Reimyo CDP-777 for £5K!).

I haven't seen a CEC or Sim offered for sale s/h within UK though.

Good luck with your listening!

 

heatherdale audio had / has(?) a cec and the importers (ultimate sonics) were 'willing to do a deal' when i was there.
cheers

julian

 

Kiln Bricks.

 

[Hello Vasco, nice to see you on the forum practising your English ]

Hello Michael,

In fact I have a lot to "practising".

[You know my views on both machines. I was very impressed with the Eclipse when I heard it in Robbo's system. However, I was also pretty impressed with the CEC we heard that day at Delmax. It blew the much more expensive Copland 288 (I think it was) out of the water.]

Actually Michael, it was the 822... oh so boring!

[If I were you I wouldn't get worried about the technical implementations and whether something is delta-sigma or multibit. IMO there's no technical reason why one should sound better than the other.]

In the end all comes down to the technical implementations... Music is art, Audio is engeneering. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

[Nearly all multibit DACs do oversampling of some kind just to make the brick wall filter easier to implement. Bitstream is merely taking this to the logical extreme.]

No my friend. Oversampling (or upsampling) is one thing, delta-sigma conversion is another thing. Of course you can't have one without the other, but you can have mutibilt conversion instead (with or without oversampling).

In multibit conversion (PCM) the amplitude of the signal only depends on the number range of the quantizer, and is independent of the frequency of the input, whereas in delta-sigma conversion there is a limit to the maximum rate at which the input signal voltage can change... "hey guys could you please play slower so I can keep following the tune"... because in diferential (delta) coding the value of the ouput represents the difference between the current sample voltage and that of the previous sample. So, what you actually do is average/integrate (sigma) that difference in order to be able to always follow the tune.

[You should listen to a Naim CDP, you might be surprised ]

As a matter of fact, and since you mentioned it, I would like to know what the rest of you guys think about the CDS1/XPS or CDI which have the holy mighty TDA1541 Philips DAC (like the CD7). Multibit but no oversampling this time... sorry Mike.

[So, has anyone bought your DAC64 yet? If you put it on here it will sell very quickly One of these days you'll learn where you went wrong there. Anything after the DAC64 can only be a downgrade ]

I must agree with WM here... sorry mate. The Yamaha's relentlessly showed me how agressive and compressed the DAC64 can sound. (By the way it is a bitstream machine.)

 

bd,
the cds is ok but very overpriced for it's age. the cdi's i've heard have out dac64'd the dac 64 in the relentless stakes so i wouldn't recommend that either. both cd players are also very old now and so even with naims stellar service reputation therre will come a time where things like transports and lasers are unavailable for repair.
as for what makes a cdp / dac sound good - for me i've always felt that the power supplies / analog output stage had just as much - if not more influence on the sound.
cheers


julian

 

My experience leads me to concur with the esteemed Julian on this, and I believe that the CD player(/system)'s power supply is critical. I have a Naim CDX which is often criticised as being uncouth. While in my system I would have always argued the contrary, it has benefited enormously from a) being on it's own mains spur and b) Having a mains lead that effectively filters radio frequencies.

0.02€