New forum ethos - what exactly is it?

So, am I right in thinking that the forum wishes to be seen as being aligned with objective, measurement based, assessment, at the expense of subjective opinion (I notice that next to no comment has been made with regard to the subjective sound of this modified component)? I would understand if this were the case as there is no shortage of forums promoting themselves on exactly the opposite premise.

 

I think we need both. As I see it one is lost and meaningless without the other. Not many people are completely objective or subjective. I really see nothing wrong with challenging stupid exaggerated claims and keeping some perspective. However this seems to upset certain people. The question I'd like to ask is why it upsets people on this forum? Most active members here also participate in other forums but don't seem to get so upset at being challenged or criticised and certainly don't throw their toys out of the prams and sod off. Serious question.

 

I wasn't aware that we had an ethos other than politeness and civility; nor have a seen a narrow minded orthodoxy that is sometimes found elsewhere.

 

Well on the front page it does say:-

All earths catered for from flat to round!

 

<moderating>

I've fixed the post order with a little copying / moving / geekery.

Tony.

PS As a pastime attempting to steer a forum falls somewhere between herding cats and nailing jelly to the wall IME.

 

Indeed!

 

as i can speak for my self thus far is that a conversation/views on a forum such as this as i do not to wish to use any other, quite at home here, everybody has their own view on many topics, from hi-fi to squirrels, how ever the personal factor does seam to to get in some if not most of the threads created on this forum, of course everyone has their opinion about what, what i disagree is personal patronising of people's whom you may have a petty or tedious dislike and has nothing to do with the posted thread.

 

I would enjoy the form best if it adopted objective and subjective in equal measure.

It is correct in my opinion is to use both objective and subjective analysis in whatever order best suits the case in hand. Often it happens that careful scrutiny of a circuit topology or mechanical detail by a skillful technician, backed by an ability to make and understand objective measurement appraisals, brings a benefit or a fresh understanding that simple “poke it and see what happens†methods could never yield. I have known many instances where engineers without the slightest interest in music or sound quality have helped to improve products and advance our understanding of the technology.

Other times something beneficial might be uncovered almost by accident and there might be no reasonable or logical explanation. Objective investigation can (and should) be made to find the explanation while allowing the beneficial effect to be enjoyed in total ignorance of its workings. We do not have to understand something to enjoy it and it would be to our loss if we dismissed everything for which we cannot find an immediate explanation.

 

I don't see anything wrong with having a guiding ethos - it certainly doesn't mean that people can't be polite to each other as well.

As I said earlier, there are a number of forums that wear their subjective ethos proudly on their sleeve. A forum that is more biased toward objective measurement is probably not a bad idea. Personally, I am probably more biased toward the subjective (though I certainly believe measurements have their place) and I wouldn't like to see the forum move toward a 'if you can't measure it, it can't exist' stance.

 

I'd replied earlier to Mark via PM as he posted this elsewhere but essentially:


No, not that extreme a position but I'm trying to position it to the left of centre so to speak. As you rightly say, most audio forums are predominantly subjectivist in outlook but that doesn't sufficiently define the difference IMO.

We are trying to introduce more testing and practical examples in which others can share, to explain what we hear. Hence the online cable test downloads, the valve comparisons, the CD lathing nul tests and the recent microphony threads, for example.

It seeks to be objective only in assessing and identifying differences - absolutely not in defining personal preference.
The latter is impossible IMO unless you adopt the view that only things that measure perfectly sound perfect - to some they do but to others they don't.

So the objectivity things is a direction steer for ZG and definitely not some attempt to trash subjectivism when it comes to preferences.

The forum direction is of course primarily dictated by the content of the posts so by 'steer' I'm saying that the post contents will ultimately define where the forum goes.
This forum's active poster base is sufficiently small that a few key posters can indicate a direction IMO. This isn't possible with a larger and established forum and on that I agree with Tony. You can be more assertive on direction and policy but that carries baggage and consequences - not to mention heavy handed control and that is certainly not what we want here. Look a Hydrogen Audio for a good example of this where posters have to justify subjective comments with objective testing - or they get moderated!
It works there, and that is a large 'objectivist' forum but the steer and policy were set down very early on. There is clearly some demand for it - go check the posting and membership stats.

The issue for ZG is that 18 months ago it was dead. Before anyone comments that a move to objectivism caused this, the very opposite ethos had existed previously, and I certainly wasn't around here at the time

The situation with forums at the moment is interesting IMO.
There are many smaller forums and they seem to spring-up with increasing regularity.
Most of these are strongly subjectivist on all levels and some even state that measurements are the work of the devil. That's fine - people can set up whatever they like and if it attracts visitors then great.

The only truly balanced forum at the moment is PFM IMO.
I think it has become more balanced over the past couple of years and it has the momentum to roll along with all opinions catered for. I certainly enjoy it more these days.

ZG has no real future unless is does something a little different, and I was asked to join the team here to attempt something different, though we opted for evolution instead of revolution. It does need more (positive) input from others, as quite frankly I and a few others will soon tire of putting in time and effort to what if effectively a project.
Bluntly, we'll do it somewhere else.

So it has a choice.
It isn't PFM and it isn't Hydrogen and it lacks the mass necessary to be just another general forum. It was previously and it got squeezed and died.
So we can move it on and set ourselves apart from other (small) forums or we can call the undertaker, again.

I gave it 12-18 months for some real signs of improvement. We have some but it isn't enough IMO. As the say, use it or lose it.

 

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i agree to a certain extend on what you employed, the theme of measurements is some what "to me" is boring, more i think that the dissecting on hi-fi either manufacturer or own or wish to be purchased as a dealer byes must not come in the equation but rather more to guidance to the individual buyer to listen and decide, after all manufacturers make the equipment and we as dealers choose were to stock it or not, ,again that depends on byes as to manufacturers telling you "if you deal with "A"you can not deal with "B" therefore how is the persons to compare A-andB? this has being going on since day one, the factor (who has now become clear) end of mutial hi-fi shows for one and all public , so dealers who were helpfull and loyal to their customers will remain their base of future choice of preferance,

 

Surely the trouble is that other forums already do it better. PFM is more balanced, WW is more chatty and humorous, AOS is for the subjectivists, Hydrogenaudio is for the measurement crowd, DIYaudio contains far more experience and skilled modders and designers and other forums exist for mentalists.

What all of these forums have in common is that there is very little intervention or hectoring of beliefs by those in charge of the forum. If ZG ends up going the proposed way we'll end up with little more than a dull blog about how everything sounds the same and there's no point ever buying anything new. certainly we'll have run out of approved topics in 6 weeks.

I'd suggest that ZG would be better off in doing some market research into what really makes people's audio reproduction choices tick. Find out what the emotional drivers for their consumption of audio are and base the forum on that. Rather than use it as a grandstand for the mods own beliefs, however interesting the mods might think themselves.

Measurements are essentially a tiny and very boring subset of the audio experience and are handled better elsewhere already. Far better consult your intended audience then make the decision.

 

Oh, I've never heard of 'Hydrogen Audio'! Is the Wam supposed to be humorous then ?

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I didn't mention Rob's PM as they are, by nature, private (a concept that some on the web struggle with). I'm pleased that he has decided to re-post it here though.
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Well yes, indeed. However, isn't it part of the moderators lot to 'stick with it'?

 

Why market research when the answers are there right in front of you?

People want different things, obviously, which is why different forums exist.

Quite what the point is in copying another place baffles me. Might as well just go there.

Measurements don't have to be boring of course and that is where we can have a USP. With one exception (you) responses to what we've done has been generally positive because we've taken what can be boring and little understood measurements and specs and tried to demonstrate them with real world tests. You can hector and be as negative as you like on that score but perhaps you'd care to join in and share your own wisdom with us.

Why the fixation on technical measurements and assessment?
Objectivity is about far more, the most obvious being listening tests conducted with something approaching a reasonable set of controls. These can be real or virtual.

 

I think the question of why people choose certain forums (at the expense of others) is an interesting one, and I think the answer is a complex one. However, I don't think that a forums individuality is one of the primary criteria of choice.

I think that, quite often it is rather by chance that people choose to become a member of a hi-fi forum. A person might have a query about a piece of equipment, they Google their question and it's just fluke which forum pops up first - often they join, but rarely become regular posters. You need a lot of these members to sustain a lively forum.

Sometimes people choose to align themselves with a particular product, or ethos. As far as I can see, the only manufacturers who have (what I would call) active forums are Linn and Naim. Many people seem to visit AoS largely due to it's pro Technics 1200/1210 stance, for example.

Others don't like to be a small fish in a big pond and prefer small forums as they feel more of a 'family' (or something). In the same way that some people are determined to buy something 'alternative'. some people like 'alternative forums'.

Strong characters can attract certain individuals - every Fuhrer requires his soldiers and some are born followers.

 

This is an important point that you are making. Objectivity certainly extends beyond measurements. It is not always the case that subjective listening tests produce correct conclusions because care and understanding is needed to be sure that the test conditions do not produce erroneous data. I have spent enough time selling audio components to know that it is easy to arrange tests that prove the total superiority of your chosen product.

There is not so much coverage on the forums concerning the best practices and the potential pitfalls in connection with subjective appraisals. Sean Olive's blog (Harman Audio) is about the only place that I know. I'd be very happy to see some active attention to this area on ZG.

 

I agree Mark, it is a complex question.

I discussed this recently with Dev and we both came up with a list of a dozen posters who were key to ZG in the early days but now seldom post on any forum - at least not in the Audio rooms.

Thorsten Loesch most immediately springs to mind.
Once a very prolific poster, he turned pro and went to work in China and unfortunately withdrew from forums at the same time. Extremely entertaining and informative in person, and to read.
It only takes a handful to leave for whatever reason and it causes a real setback.

Another good example is what happened over on World Design.
Around 10 key people went off to form a new site and within the space of a few months, what was once an excellent valve audio forum was virtually dead.

What we need are a decent core of regular contributors (and I'd stress 'positive' ones) and the traffic will be there. We have the visitors - the stats show plenty of people reading and this usually is around 100+ in the evenings, but they'll post if something catches their eye.

Perhaps we need to bring in another person or two into the admin/mod team?

Noise increases forum traffic and we had experience of that recently. it has only very limited benefit though and only if applied for a short time. Ultimately it turns negative and puts off more people than it attracts. That is always a tricky and calculated gamble!

 

Agree entirely.

We can only try and improve things and we won't always get things right, but at least the ethos and direction is there so you are in with a fighting chance of producing something meaningful and relevant.

 

I'm not sure that who the moderators are really matters. For example, I post quite a lot on pfm, and although I know who a couple of the moderators are, I certainly couldn't name them all.

ZeroGain does seem to have a very active 'Classifieds' section and perhaps those people could somehow be encouraged to post in the Audio forum?

 

It tends to tie people in IMO, ie you feel like you have a little more invested in the place. Nothing more.

Then again, the market is now crowded. I said ages ago that 10 active threads daily would be reasonable aim and we hit and exceed that sometimes, so things aren't that bad and we do need to maintain some perspective.
I little more effort would do it IMO - a handful of additional active posters.

World domination isn't on the agenda