new living voice prototype horns

OP9 - I realise there is much to learn from Romy.
but tell me one reason why he need to tell me that Im an idiot to learn it?

Andy

 

welcome to the forum OP.9 - interesting first post.

Could you possibly shed some light on what Romy has taught us all so far with his invaluable contribution to ZG? I appreciate there is a fine line between genius and madness, but I really wonder whether some confuse one for the other.

 

hi murray, if you just extend your chosen electrostats concept towards a variety of panel drivers/speakers (ribbons in the first place) i feel this issue may cause an attention of those who have no prejudice against different options, because there is a rising star on the scene of ribbons.

it's aleksandar radisavljevic of RAAL fame, he hails from a small serbian town zajecar and his designs strongly defies usual prejudices against panel type of drivers. quad 63 is one of the most famous examples of retrogradation in audio known to me, after quad 57, and honestly i've never had enough evidence that even 988 is a step forward.

i've had recently a chance to listen two systems against each other, one was quad 63 with transient subwoofer powered with quad 909 and another was a plain 2-way dynamic speaker by serbian NN acoustics utilizing RAAL mid-tweeter ribbon and a focal bass driver powered with a valve amp dedicately designed for the speakers, it was laughable how the quad setup was ridiculed in every possible aspect, including these where an ultimate superiority is expected such as a transparency and low distortion.

http://www.nnacoustics.com/p_rubycon.php

RAAL products should be taken with an ultimate seriousity because aleksandar's ribbons directly address the weakest known points of panel drivers such as dynamics, especially micro dynamics, as well as colorations. they are an absolute revelation after decades of rule of completely wrong products that became a benchmark for a panel type of speakers. whoever had a chance to hear a properly implemented RAAL driver knows that there is something serious going on. his MF-HF drivers are a serious mockery of a current audiophile hierarchy and something that an every serious designer should put into account before final decisions what drivers should be implemented.

i apologize for off topic but i believe that quad ESL 63 shouldn't be publicly allowed to represent a variety of panel options after all, more or less. british audio would do much better for its reputation if this type of loudspeakers wouldn't be allowed to rule the scene for almost 2 decades. even obviously compromised dynamic designs such as ATC 20A are able to show all the restrictions of ESL63 within just a few minutes, not to mention something more serious. watch out for RAAL.

 

Raal make tweeters unless I am very much mistaken.

You still have a cone in a box or on an open baffle giving you everything except the top three octaves.

 

invaluable?

errr...

in no particular order

1. audio reproduction vs music - 2 different subjects.
2. large-throat and short mid-bass horns sound like poo
3. goto ale etc. expensive comp drives are a waste of money without a proper horn
4. pointing out how the alphas bass works
5. his defraction absorbing solutions didn't help
6. links to his site where many issues have been dealt with in depth
7. i@m bored - read the whole thread again.



op.9

 

sorry mike, aleksandar makes a very good mid-tweeter driver too. the best he makes are not ready made products you'll find on his website such as 14-15D that crosses over at 1.6k.
www.raalribbon.com/products_flatfoil_140-15.htm
the best of this type (MF-HF) i've heard is an extremely long driver (near 20") designed to crossover really low and i think this was one of his first drivers. the first on the upper left:
http://www.raalribbon.com/history.htm#
it deserves to be heard. far from that it should be considered as a definite solution, but many of designs utilizing his properly implemented drivers are very good products - certainly much better than many brand name achievements from what is considered to be an elite of dynamic audio today - dynaudio, focal, b&w, ATC etc.

 

OP9 - Why have we to be humbled by Romy - you never explained - its a simple question?

 

humbled

I'm have no problem in being called an idiot by Romy. It really doesn't hurt! However, if there is an issue that I have genuinely and fundamentally investigated that I feel he hasn't (for me, its quite hard to find many!) then I'd be happy to argue and explain my opinion. And have a good fight if need be. It really doesn't hurt!!

It does seem to hurt people though who are blind in their faith or acceptance of industry orthodoxy and received options...

op.9

 

interesting, does it not hurt to be called an idiot in general or just by romy in particular? thanks.

 

With the exception of 4, they are all simply personal viewpoints that fail to eductate anyone other than morons, and have no more relevence or weight than anyone else's and less than most. No. 4 he didn't do I think you will find - he simply posed a question. Keith answered. Incorrectly strictly speaking.

At the same time, he's failed to address any criticisms aimed at him, leading me to believe he doesn't have the answers.

Still, I'm glad you feel you've learnt something.

 

Hey my post had relevance, its about angry people!

 

No sorry - to me that 14-15D is a tweeter. Recommended crossover is 4th order at 1600hz. I've yet to hear a decent speaker that uses such severe slopes so I would expect you to have to use first or second order to get a decent sound. That means crossing over at least an octave further up, probably two. Meaning you'd crossover between 3.5khz and 7khz. Alternatively of course you could use a very low powered amp given the sensitivity, but I still wouldn't crossover below 2.5khz Unless you like 4th order of course, but even then wouldn't refer to it as a midrange drive unit at all.

The larger units would indeed be interesting, but I haven't heard anything ribbon based that has really blown me away. He's going to need to build something pretty large to safely crossover 1st or second order at 800hz or below.

 

Simon your posts have every bit as much relevence as anyone else's.

 

called an idiot

this needs another thread. Because it's interesting..but maybe in another forum? Psychology perhaps?

If you really know something (through investigation intuition and intelligence and open mindedness) someone, anyone, including Mr Romy, calling you an idiot is really quite interesting. For me it encourages two responses. Firstly, a re-questioning of one's own knowledge (always welcome, and very exciting at best) and secondly, an investigation of the motives of the name caller (interesting in Romy's case!)


op.9

 

i am wondering about your thoughts what are the sonic consequences if sticking with a low crossover frequency in this case?

both of the NN acoustic designs i reckon to be the most succesfull implementation of RAAL longer ribbon i know, cross at either 1.6 or 1.8k and they sound just as superbly integrated as they could - on the top NN's dedicated listening room is one of the best in this part of the world in terms of a lack of usual room interferences.

 

Anu,

Just my personal experience, but speakers employing passive high order crossovers seem to have life sucked out of them and lose cohesiveness and instruments natural timbre to a degree. They all sound wonderfully neutral, clean and detailed, but somehow lacking.I've never heard the NN speakers but they definately look interesting. Maybe they would change my viewpoint. The cabinet construction on the K2 looks familar. That will be interesting - everyone I know using that stacked ply construction has stopped having suffered delamination problems in anything other than small standmounts.

 

PRELIMS

I'd like to start by saying that I haven't been drinking, just working late.



I like music, my tastes aren't particularly sophisticated but I like what I like and my favourite records changed my life or at least made a very positive contribution to it. Having a decent HiFi enables me to appreciate them even more and I really enjoy my system.

I can understand that others have different views from mine and that yet more take their audio or their system very seriously indeed. However, having watched this thread develop I feel I must agree with 85 - 90% of people.

OPINION

Romy comes across as an obnoxious and ill mannered person. And lets face it (with all due respect), his knowledge (although no doubt impressive), isn't exactly on a par with Stephen Hawking, Einstein or Da Vinci. Therefore he has no reason whatsoever to talk in the way he does. Eccentric? Maybe. Rude? definitely.

I have watched the forum for a couple of years yet only recently contributed. I feel that it is a pretty inclusive place where professionals and people with serious interest mix with those of more humbler ambitions and means (like me). Romy's input into the the forum has been obtuse and rude in 90% of cases. If this is his attitude then how do you think a complete novice would react to it? Probably by thinking he was a total twat and moving swiftly on.

If he wants to talk about 'serious sound' reproduction and appreciation then he should feel free to do it here. However the caveat of showing the basic levels of courtesy demonstrated by the majority of other posters still apply.

ROMY

Romy, not everyone agrees with your viewpoints and not everyone is even on the same level, but that doesn't mean you have to talk to them like children. Please tell me what your first HiFi / Audio / Sound reproduction system was? I would be interested. I'd be surprised if it all 'kicked off' with a Micro 8000 and associated kit.

If everyone in the World is such an idiot then why not just stop talking to people full stop? Indeed some of the more strident opinions you air would be better on your own site. That way anyone who is interested can look for themselves without getting it 'belt fed' (as in belt fed machine gun) from you on this one. I for one don't like to see people talking like that and do have a problem with being called an idiot (he hasn't called me one quite yet, I don't know enough about horns). It doesn't hurt but it is rude. Again, if you were some kind of fucking genius then 'c'est las vie', but you obviously are not, otherwise we'd all be converts to 'serious sound' and living la vida romy.

If I was at the Bar and you spoke to me in the way you post about Audio, Music, Books, TV, Clothes, ping pong balls etc I would walk away and boil my head, before I wasted my time talking you. I would like to see what would happen if you spoke to people like that in person. I'll bet you don't do that on the streets of Boston. I'm no born-again hard man but you certainly wouldn't get away with speaking to me like that face to face.

I have a suspicion (from the tales of your previous 'bans')that this is all yet another way to get some reaction from people. Because it seems the world won't listen to you normally.

Why not set up a Loudspeaker Company or sell your designs. I'm sure people would like to hear them. Alternatively get out, get a girlfriend / Boyfriend / Wife / Husband. Or start another hobby as well, go for a run and let some of that up tightness just flow away.

LIVING VOICE QUESTION

I've always been curious about their speakers. I guess it's a price point thing but I always wondered if their state of the art was the Air Partner or Air Scout why the lower range (Avatar etc) were all conventional boxes.

I am assuming that the advantages of horns are:

Great efficiency
Greater linearity
Greater frequency extension (down at least)
No 'Boxiness'

If so, how close do the LV box speakers get to what an equivalently priced horn system would give you in terms of the qualities listed above?

P.S. Forgive my ignorance I'm just curious.

 

Anubisgrau, a few things.

1) Quad introdused the formation of the front wave and it made many people addicted to it. People got addicted to it whoever was able to get addicted to it, and primary because their too simplistic and primitive understood of the notion of Neutrality (wildly misunderstood concept in audio). Some lost guy at Tannoy thread is still thinking in the subject what ?colorations? are?

2) What the damn RAAL ribbon has to do with anything? If you in some kind of ass-serving business to plug RAALs in any shithole in internet then at least do it with some kind of class. Create own damn thread for your RAAL propaganda it is at least what you can do? How did you say: ?What I would expect from a serious person here??

3) Even if you put on yourself a mask of RAAL?s Sanche Pance then do not let your agenda to lead your off the truthfulness. Ribbons do have own intrinsic problems and quite few of them. Good luck with those 2-ways and ribbon ruining all the way down?

I can see now an army or retarded internet psychos run to this thread and copy/paste the phases about ribbons. Do something better: stay ?f-u-ck? out of this thread if what your post is not related to the damn ?Audio Voice prototype? of the elements that Audio Voice used.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

PS: op.9, drop the ?Stereo Mic.? He is juts an empy noise, if you read carefully what he says then you will see that to deal with his is link peeing against a wind, but only vie someday else penis and on the legs of your neighbor?.
________
Digital Vaporizer

 

It's also much more relevant than the 'Mr Logic' scanned cartoon strip I was going to post before biting my fingers (not really of course, that would be hideous).

I hate the bareneked ladies' music but at least they enjoy themselves.