new living voice prototype horns

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by bottleneck, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. bottleneck

    angeloitacare

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    orpheans

    hello Gerner

    i agree with you. Who critizises the Orpheans, did not hear them.
    I don't know any owner that does not enjoy them. That's why i said to Bert : the orpheans are hard to beat. I heard recently a Goto system , and i must say: these so highly regarded and expensive drivers do not hold candles against the orpheans.
    Bert has done a great job. If i wont get the Radians to sound at them same level as the orpheans, i probably will use just the driver and crossover of the Orpheans, with my own horns, and leave the design as is for future projects. However, in first instance what i would like, is if the midrange would sound a littlebit softer, and have a separate tweeter might give more dispertion, and a more "open" sound. This is the direction i will go. Gordan said you will replace your Swings with new speakers ? Can you give more details about their configuration ?

    rds Angelo
     
    angeloitacare, Sep 5, 2007
  2. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    considering you made them yourself, you've done an excellent DIY job on those speakers. The fit and finish are very good, well done.
     
    bottleneck, Sep 5, 2007
  3. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    Angelo my dear..

    Yes the Orpheans you implied are wonderful. The MKII even far better. And you should stick to the MKII in the future IMO.
    Then you only have to apply the bass system to them....and mind time alignment. A thing I think you should address strongly.

    Then a small or call it rather BIG warning: Do never apply a filter customized for one driver to another different driver.. The results will be disasterous. You neither get the frequency (un)liniarity you might look for and in any case you will burn off any other driver not designed to reach that low.
    Don't do it!

    You can make any filter to your Radian CD to your likes, but forget the the Orphean filter then.

    I must be a friend saying that. :)


    New SWING's...oh did he say that? It's a mystery.

    Gerner
     
    Gerner, Sep 5, 2007
  4. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    Nothing wrong buying others blood, sweat and tears.

    I do that too. :D

    Gerner
     
    Gerner, Sep 5, 2007
  5. bottleneck

    angeloitacare

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    time alignment

    hello Gerner

    time alignment is actually a issue i will have to adress.
    on my plate amp, i can adjust 0 - 270 degrees. Between the voicecoil of the bass and the BMS drivers, are 45cm , do u know where i would have to leave the adjustment, to have them time aligned ?

    well, for me the learning process will beginn actually with the Radians. To buy the orpheans, and add the bass, with a plate amp, was a peace of cake. Left was only design the cab, and find a reliable company to make them.... now, it will be start really from zero... i will need to learn how to handle cliowin, make measurements, design crossovers etc.... i guess in a couple of years i can show up , with luck, with something,that sound decent.... at least i hope so.... of course i would never use the orphean crossover for the radian.....

    rds Angelo
     
    angeloitacare, Sep 6, 2007
  6. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    Dear Angelo

    Sorry I posted a wrongish answer as I mixed up the words delay and decay. The answer lost completely sence ha ha ha....
    I deleted that post and here is a better answer:


    Time alignment: It's a triggy thing Angelo. Suffeling the polarity up to a max of 270 degrees unfortunately doesn't compensate for a driver displacement of XX cm's. Not if that function on your plate amp works as I think it works.

    I don't think your phase shifter is 3-dimensional and delays the bass in the real time domain. It doesn't ask the signal to wait some given msec's.
    You have to ask the supplier if it does or try this out:

    Insert a Behringer like devise and delay the bass and check for the audible outcome of it is the same as your button does it.

    I suggest to do this as you have no measuring equipment to detect it, only your ears.

    A suggestion to redesign the speakers would likely not be popular, would it?

    Gerner :)
     
    Gerner, Sep 6, 2007
  7. bottleneck

    angeloitacare

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    how are you doing it ?

    hello Gerner

    how do you resolve time delay of your swings ?
     
    angeloitacare, Sep 6, 2007
  8. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    Dear Angelo

    Elementary Dr. Watson: I have all drivers (read = voice coils) physically time alligned.

    Hah...I hear some says: How is that possible when the diaphragmes in the Orphs are so deep inside your cab and the bass drivers just grooved into the front panel?"

    Well a good question, I say. But the bass driver is two bass drivers in an ISO-BARIC mode. And the acoustical center is just between the two voice coils of the drivers. So 24 cm's behind the front panel.
    Add on top of that the Orphs always radiates over my ear position, so in this case I have exactly the same distance * between the voice coils of the drivers and my ears.

    * The bass drivers are a few cm in front of the Orphs VC's to compensate for the higher Mms bass drivers and reduced accelaration factor compared to the Orphs snap reaction on signals.
    But this is tuned in by the ear.

    The swing function (in total 90 degrees) of the Swings also offer the oportunity to play with the time alignment, listening height (not all chairs are of the same height, nor our bodies). The toe in is also a part of the game.

    There is a small alignement offset inside the BMS driver. That is handled by the filter in the Ophean MK II version.

    Gerner
     
    Gerner, Sep 6, 2007
  9. bottleneck

    Stereo Mic

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    Angelo,

    at what frequency are you crossing over and what slope are you using? Acoustical slope of course!
     
    Stereo Mic, Sep 6, 2007
  10. bottleneck

    angeloitacare

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    crossover

    The woofer, i can choose crossover between 50hz and 300hz/24db slope. I use at 300hz/ 24db. the orpheans , when i bought them, Bert was talking that they were crossing at 220hz, and recently he changed, and said they were at 290hz. I guess Gerner can answer better this question.

    Gerner :

    And the acoustical center is just between the two voice coils of the drivers.

    I doubt about this: the sound is coming from the woofer mounted on the frontpannel, so i guess this should be the reference point ?

    higher Mms bass drivers and reduced accelaration factor compared to the Orphs snap reaction on signals.

    that meens all who time align the woofers on the same axis as the mids and highs, are doing it wrong ??!!

    listening height (not all chairs are of the same height, nor our bodies). The toe in is also a part of the game.

    that's a interesting point. I choose to have the horn axis at 97cm from the floor, to be moreless on height of ears. What wonders me is why most others don't do that, but actually place their mid horns so mutch higher than ear level. As well i placed the woofer as close as possible to the horn, so that it integrates as good as possible with the horn.

    Angelo
     
    angeloitacare, Sep 7, 2007
  11. bottleneck

    Stereo Mic

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    OK Angelo,

    The horizontal displacement between the voice coils of the cone and compression driver should be even multiples of one half the wavelength of the transition frequency to maintain proper acoustical phasing.

    So if you are using 300hz the wavelength is 1.14666 metres. Half of that will be 57.33cm or just under two feet. the bass driver will already be further away as it is not at ear height, you will need to measure the distance to the coil of the bass driver then add 57.33cm to that to find where the compression driver's coil should be placed.

    Once you have done that, do some tests with warble tones. You may find a null at the transition point as it's half a wavelength. Simply reverse the phase on one driver if you do.

    Given your design it is not going to be practical to physically align the drive units and IME this is practically undistinguishable.
     
    Stereo Mic, Sep 7, 2007
  12. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    Hi Angelo

    Your Orpheans has a roll off towards the lows I cannot even remember what was.
    The MK II has an acoustical slope of excactly 24 db LR at 280 Hz. This may be of no interest and just a piece of technical information.

    The coustical center in a ISO-BARIC is in between the VC's. Meassure it if you cannot beleive it.

    Ahh you ask about the woofers should anyhow not be timealigned....well when you meassure it they should. But that is a meassuring signal. Not music.
    Real operation shows different. A pulse from reproduced music leaves the bass's a step behind in time as their magnetical force to Mmms ratio is much poorer than the smaller drivers. Also the accoustical resistance it deals with is a fight it has to overcome.
    So to my best experience it simply sounds more timealigned when it is ahead the rest. I my case 3 cm's.

    Well Angelo...I can set my Swings to 97 cm's too. Would not know what distance you have from floor to ear in your favorit chair? My distance is excactly 1 m. And my Orph axis is set at 1,1 m. But this may be irelevant information?
    Here the Orph horn axis is hence 10 cm above my ears and the toe in is resulting in the axises are crossing each other almost 2 meters behind my ears. But the Orphs are made to be set up like that. Not on axis. I have flat response here and a wonderful sound stage as deep as a football stadium.

    Gerner:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2007
    Gerner, Sep 7, 2007
  13. bottleneck

    angeloitacare

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    tweaking

    well,

    as my speakers are only a view days in my listening room, i will have to make still some experiments and tweakings, also with damping material inside. I damped also the bracings; as the bass is extremely fast, i will take off the damping material from the bracings, and see if it will go deeper, without getting boomy. i can as well moove the Orphean horn forward, as it is not fixed, and see if it sounds more transparent and coherent.

    best Angelo
     
    angeloitacare, Sep 7, 2007
  14. bottleneck

    Stereo Mic

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    Just position them where I outlined if that's possible - they will sound great.
     
    Stereo Mic, Sep 7, 2007
  15. bottleneck

    Paul Ranson

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    Location:
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    It can't be.

    Paul
     
    Paul Ranson, Sep 7, 2007
  16. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    Why not Paul? Even Clio tells it.

    It says: xx cm's from the mic to the acoustical center. I meassure it with my tape meassure. The same.

    So?

    Gerner:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2007
    Gerner, Sep 7, 2007
  17. bottleneck

    Paul Ranson

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    Location:
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    The 'acoustical center' is defined by the location of the physical bit that moves and the time it starts to move. So an Isobarik setup has the same 'acoustical center' as the outer woofer, when driven by the same signal. Whatever Clio says and however cute she may be.

    Paul
     
    Paul Ranson, Sep 7, 2007
  18. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    Ahh.. that thing Paul.

    Then read this, as I really tested that out before leaving my ISO BARIK where it is in the cabinet.

    (Not related to the DB-Design creation of the Swings. I refer to former experiments with ISO BARIK. Just say the Swings just tell the same. And the ISO BARIK in the Swings only were introduced to make the cabinet smaller and the design nicer. Not because ISO BARIK is superior to single woofer designs. Rather opposite).

    Meassured the acoustical center without the front driver mounted. It was exactly on top of the voice coil.

    Meassured the front woofer without the rear woofer mounted. It was exactly on top of the voice coil.

    Now both woofers. And it was excactly in between them.

    Sound waves has a traveling time. And the rear woofer is behind the front woofer. So where/when does the sound start? She, the Clio, cannot be fooled by that.

    If I pull out the Orpheans to align their diaphragmes to the front woofers voice coil, I hear it goes wrong. But my abillity to hear things can always be discussed hahaha.

    I say: Mount 3 woofers in an ISO BARIK and the acoustical center will be the top of the voice coil of the middle woofer.

    I don't think we can eliminate that the rear woofer also has an acoustical center regardless there is a woofer in front of it. It is one piston of course, but the acoustical center can only be defined as an equation of the two acoustical centers. That equation being very simple though.

    Ehh...let's take it further, now more freaky than ever:
    Where is the acoustical center of a front loaded horn? At the voice coil or at the end of the horn? (We all know where it is).
    Isn't a frontloaded horn comparable to an ISO BARIK if we assume the ISO BARIK is a horn with a 1:1 acoustical impedance ratio (no amplification). And a horn is an *ISO BARIC*, but qua the horn has a 1:10 say acoustical impedance ratio (amplification). The last forms an acoustical impedance transformer.


    I and the Clio says the acoustical center is where the driver is and not the horn mouth.

    The example might be incredible stupid, but....many told me back in time that the horn mouth is where the sound takes off/starts. I didn't beleive it and my meassuring system at that times was not CLIO but MLISSA, and that confirmed my disbeleives.

    But maybe I should be thaught a lesson here?

    Can anybody enlighten me here on the forum?

    I'm open to it :)


    Gerner
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2007
    Gerner, Sep 8, 2007
  19. bottleneck

    Gerner

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    I can add an even more stupid example:

    Let's say we have an injection needle and a tube with liquid with a piston behind it.

    The nice nurce now want to spray that just into our face. The liquids first drop will hit your face, but the last drop will also. But the is a time delay between the first and the last.

    This is the way I perceive sound travels from the two drivers which in the case of ISO BARIK certainly is nonaligned.

    Well...maybe I'm way out here, but I have no other theories that tells me it shouldn't be so.

    Neither Google will find it for me.

    Gerner:)
     
    Gerner, Sep 8, 2007
  20. bottleneck

    Stereo Mic

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    Gerner,

    what does the impulse response of the bass section look like? Do you have a picture?
     
    Stereo Mic, Sep 8, 2007
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