Not my Townshend for sale - but had to share!

Elite Rock

Yum!

(Not really my item for sale, thats why its up here.)

ebay: Item number: 290119123276

Bargain too (with all the toys) including the seismic sink! £1150 way cool.

 

No t exactly a bargain . It IS second hand after all two days to go and no one has shown any interest. At that price with no bidding I am not surprised

 

The item is Buy It Now - Not an auction. It isn't possible to bid. You either buy it or you don't.

The only time we will know if there is any interest is if it sells

 

hmmm... maybe i just got carried away...

Dear Mod, please delete my ramblings!


(too much red bull that day)

 

Hi Chris,

There was a Rock on Ebay not too long ago which had a Merlin power supply, Excalibaur arm, Ortofon MC30 cartridge, Acrylic platter upgrade plus a newer seismic sink which went for around £660. I'm not sure that the Origin live power supply mod is better than using the Merlin power supply.


The arm looks interesting.

CIDB

 

Hi Dean

I think if people heard one of these set up properly they'd be bloomin amazed. Away goes your surface noise, replaced with pinpoint focus. It can take on turntables many times the price. Its amazing what a bit of applied physics can do to the sound of a tt, people are prepared to spend a shed load of a tone arm and leave the business end bouncing about in free space at the mercy of warps and unwanted vibration. This TT just helps the tonearm and cartridge just get on with making music. The silicon damping works so well, to my mind its hifi's best kept secret. Tracking accuracy isn't an issue here. They might look a bit like a dansette, but if you're happier to hear rather than look at eye candy, you're laughing! I'm not sure the acylic was necessarily an upgrade as it somewhat differs from Cranbrook universitys original choice of platter material for its mechanical properties and density. The bearings more than up to the weight of a chunky composite stone platter. I don't know much about the house "excalibur" arm, but I believe its very good. The Origin Live Silver has had some very good reviews. I'm spent up at the mo, and have got in trouble with my girlfriend to prove it.

Overall I've noticed a marked drop in prices achieved on ebay, I really think the whole population is financially maxxed out.

 

Hi Chris,

I am a fan of the Rock turntable. I first had one in the mid 80s. Then upgraded to the Rock Reference. Both are fine decks.

I have heard other decks with very low noise floors. The Avid Acutus is one.

That is very true.

A better way is to build a better tonearm. One that doesn't vibrate. This is hard to do.

The downside of damping is that it doesn't always get rid of all the vibrations. Certain vibrations will disappear, while others will be reduced. A vibration may have a high peak of a bandwidth of a few hertz. With applied damping, the peak may reduce but the bandwidth is increased. That means it vibrates over a wider range but less violently.

The damping on the Rock does benefit a number of arm/cartridge combinations. Certain combos require more damping than others. The Decca cartridges work very well in Rocks.

I can think of only one other company that used a damping trough at the cartridge end. That was a company called Maplenol.

There have been a few companies that have damping at the other end.

It did track very well.

The downside of the Rock turntables was that they weren't as well finished as some decks. But at the time it was a sonic baragain.

The original Cranfield Rock was a project lead by Prof Jack Dinsfield. Jack bumped into Max Townshend at a hifi show. Jack had already developed a few ideas in hifi such as the transformerless transistor amplifier and had patented the damping trough. They got talking about turntable design.

A reasearch project was developed to build the ultimate turntable. A student called John Bugge did a Msc on the production of a prototype turntable. I understand that this deck was quite large (heavy) in size and may have been a direct drive. It did have a platter that was different to the rest.

This in turn lead to Joohn Bugge setting up a company making a scaled down version called The Rock. Max Townshend's company at the time, Elite, marketed the deck. It was an interesting item with the trough plus internal suspension. It retailed at around £550. This was when the market leader was the Linn L12 which costed about £330. The rock didn't sell as well and wasn't easy to build. The company went bust.

Max decided to use a number of the techniques and ideas on the popular Elite Rock II. This was a much scaled down version. It was easier to build. It was first on offer at £280. This was at a time when the Linn LP12 was around £400.

The Rock II was built around a steel shell that had plaster of Paris filling on squash ball feet. The platter had the same filling.

The price of the Rock II crept up leading to the release of the cheaper Avalon.

Future Rocks had different platters. The Rock III had an acrylic platter and built in seismic sink. The avalon had a vinyl platter and the Rock reference had a platter of vinyl with lead and plaster. It weighed a bit.

The Rock Reference was the deck more like the Cranfield prototype.

The excalibaur arm work very well as do a number of other arms. Rocks crop up often. There will be others. Just don't tell the girlfriend.

There is a lot of hifi trafffic on ebay. Prices have fallen. baragain are to be had.


SCIDB

 

And now the Rock V is released! £4,500; excalibur arm £2,400.

The history of the development is detailed on Townshend's website.
http://www.townshendaudio.com

 

Hi all,

this is my first post so bear with me whilst I get the hang of it!

I'm watching the Elite Rock on ebay as well as a new Origin Live Aurora plus Mk 2 Silver tonearm with a buy it now price of £1,050.

Currently, I've got a Pro-Ject RPM9x, Pro-ject Speedbox SE, Cartridge Man MM3 plus isolator and a Graham Slee Era Gold phono stage. The deck sits on a Seismic Sink.

I bought the RPM9x just over 2 years ago on ebay from Laurence Armstrong of Henley Designs. I paid £500 for what was supposed to be an ex reviewer copy, but someone at Henley sold it and Laurence sent me a new one instead!! I also bought the Speedbox half price at £150.

The PRM9x got generally good reviews, but one or two criticised its timing. Since I've only ever used mine with the Speedbox (which also acts as a power supply upgrade), I've never had any problem with it. It's also very speed stable.

The trouble is, as the balance on my credit card gets closer to zero I start getting twitchy again. I don't think there are too many upgrade options with Pro-ject. There's a new arm (9cc) but I'm not keen on spending £400 for what I suspect would be a minimal performance improvement.

The £1,150 or £1,050 question then becomes whether going down the Rock or Aurora routes will result in noticeably better performance and give me more upgrade options.

I know this is the kind of question that can't really be answered, but some informed observations would be nice, even if it's just about whether the asking prices are reasonable.

Thanks

 

I had a Townshend Avalon, I replaced it with a Pro-ject Perspective, and I much preferred the Pro-ject. They're under-rated. If you want to spend money put a nice MC, or get a better phono stage. I ran a Lyra Dorian for a while (until the Mother in law killed it!) The arm can more than cope with it. They're vastly underpriced decks in my opinion, and you'd have to pay a lot more to significantly improve it.

 

I sold my Pro-Ject Perspective because my CD player destroyed it in every department... I'm of the total opposite opinion that it is a massively over-rated turntable.

I still own all of my vinyl and will go down the turntable route again at some point in the future, but considering how unhappy I was with the Perspective I have no doubt that there is much more to offer from an analogue front end.

 

Set up properly it's great. I'd have no hesitation in recommending it, and preferred it in auditions to the Roksan TT, the Clearaudio at the same price, and a similar priced Rega. It is a pain in the arse to get right though. It stays put when you've done though.

 

Item 290119123276 has finished and there have been no takers hence the buy it now was set far too high. We are talking about something second hand here from the eighties. Most such T/Ts go for about £500 -£600 . I recently saw an Alphason Sonata go for even less and that was also an excellent T/T. H e should've put a reserve on it and let people bid.People unless they are plain daft are not going to pay for something second hand what it would've cost new especially when one takes inflation into consideration

 

....hmm fair point, its still probably better than a lot of £1k TT's out there, damn these things are solid if nothing else. Would have been better with a Koetsu, but theres no cartridge. Thats a big chunk of money for a good one. I'd stand by Deans comments.

 

I guess ast the end of the day something is only worth what someone is prepared toi pay for it. In todays market if it had been new then it would've seemed like a bargain Good as it may be its still second hand and the are GyroDecks SE and Nottingham analogue T/Ts out there competing at that price level

 

Hi,

That is so true. A number of people would have looked at it and known that other Rocks have gone for less. It's not to say that the seller couldn't have got that price. If he had as an auction starting at a low price at the right time of the year, that he could have done well. Auctions can bring auction fever which is good for the seller.

Bargains can be had with older turntables. Well built stuff can last years. Some people would prefer the Rock to the Gyrodek & the Nottingham. Unless you have heard all three together then you wouldn't know.

Prices of old decks are determined by demand, status and rarity. Decks likes EMTs will go over a £1000 as will mint Technics SP10s MKII with plinths & arms. Also Technics SP10Mk III will go for much more. A full tackle Linn LP12 from the 80s/90s will go over £1000. LP12/Ekos/Lingo/Arkiv can hit over £1400.

The market for turntables is competitive. There are many decks in the £1000 to £2000 bracket. When you add 2nd/ex-dem then the choices are vast.

SCIDB

 

Maybe he was just testing the waters but it seemed a strange way of listing something ie at such a high price.
as for taste in T/T ? Yes its a very individual thing. Personally I wouldnt touch Linn with a barge pole. Its never been my cup of tea at all and I find it very odd that people are prepared to pay in excess of £1000 for an old one unless they appreciate in value liike a good antique. Gyrodec , Sonata , Voyd ,Rock yes but at sensible prices only. It use to annoy me no end that almost every other dealer seem to sell Linn and i would have to travel miles to find a T/T of my liking

 

Yes, I wouldn't have put that on at that high a price. On an auction site I would start low.

A lot of people are fans of the LP12. There has been over 100,000 of them made over the years. The rise of flat earth in the late 70s/early 80s created a good market for all things LP12. The Linn turntable outsold the competition in the UK. Constant price rises has meant that the 2nd market is still keen. The LP12 has many upgrades and mods that can be done on older decks. The world market for LP12s is also strong.

Some of these mods and parts can be expensive so the 2nd hand option keeps things affordable.

The current top of the range LP12 fully kitted out with the top Linn cartridge cost around £9400. So to get on the LP12 ladder, 2nd route is a very good way to go.

Prices will vary but it's down to demand. The prices of some have gone up, others have gone down. LP12 fans who want a deck with an Ekos & Lingo will usually pay over £1000.

State of the art decks are expensive. Just look at the number of models that retail over £5000. A well put together deck will last years, so a highly rated deck of old should give a new deck a good run for it's money and even beat it.

Decks like this can be had a good prices. I have seen the Alphason Sonata go for a few hundred pounds. I saw a Voyd go for £875. It had a SME V and an Ortofonm Jubilee plus all boxes. The SME V usually sells at £900 to £1100 on it's own. The cartridge was low mileage. Voyd is sort after by a number of people. A dealer would sell this combo for over £1700.

That is to do with the rise of Linn in the late 70s & 80s. The market shifted to turntable first, with the LP12 leading the pack. The number of Linn dealer grew. Only a few of them offered a choice of turntables. The Linn range grew. In the mid to late 80s, I think there was over 200 Linn dealers. Most of the other competition had a smaller dealer network. So comparing deck could be a pain.

The situation is not much better now. There are a load of decks on the market but fewer dealers sell them. More leg may be needed to hear the choices.

SCIDB

 

I realise its all about supply and demand but I wonder how many bought it was because its the thing to have. I listened to it on a number of occasions and was most unbowled over. Got me thinking that maybe it was overhyped by the media who constantly gave it high praises thus generating a high demand whilst at the same time other decks were in the main ignored. Alphason was in its day way ahead of the time with its HR100s arm made from a single piece of machined titanium (the first of its kind), a composite platter (designed ,I believe,to combat resonance) , again no one had done that before and a brilliant power supply( Atlas) which was plagiarised by Linn amongst others . Its generally recognised today that the Sonata was underpriced but it was competing against the Linn which had the market sewn up. I think Mike Knowles ,the designer, should have pitched it much higher .
I remember talking to a dealer who would carry out his business in the clients' houses where he would leave equipment for a number of days for the occupants to listen to. He had no axe to grind and could order any deck one wished. H e told me the Linn when it first came out was sold for about £50 . Thirteen years later he said it didnt cost much more than that to make. I think at that time it was approximately priced about £600 -£700 .

 

I reckon a few would have.

This did happen. Linn gained at lot of press at the time. There were a few editors of mags who were very pro flat earth. Also there were flat earth dealers who made good money from selling Linn. With the range of Linn products (Turntables, arms, cartridges, turntable mods) in the early 80s, a path of customer sales was established.

Also the turntables needed setting up & checking by a dealer every so often. All were good paths of revenue for Linn and the dealers. Add to this other Linn decks, speakers, amps, powersupplies etc and you have a good captive audience for future sales. Linn brand loyality would develop. This sort of stuff happens in a lot of industries.

Plus the company had other irons in the fire so they mushroomed as a business. Compared to most other British hifi companies, they were loads bigger. Also more professional than a number.

A very good design from 1980 using a interesting material. The new Linn Ekos is also made from this.

Townshend had a composite platter on The Rock in the early 80s. A few other companies were using platters of different material. But most companies were using metal and glass.

That was interesting power supply. It may have influenced others.

Linn was the market leader at the time. Also you have the Roksan Xerses, Pink Triangle, Michell Gyrodek and Townshend Rock as major competition. It was hard for new decks what ever the price. The Sonata came on the market in 1986. The rise of cd was already on it's way.

The LP12 basic shape hasn't really shaped. The plinth is made from wood, with a steel top plate. The sub chassis is made from steel. These shouldn't be too expensive to make.

The price has shot up alot. The upper turntable market is quite expensive. They are many decks at over £5000. An arguement is small numbers (sales) and high precision (material/engineering/research) keeps price up. Also thing can be prices to fit in the market.

The current price for a LP12 without power supply, no arm, no cartridge is £1560. Then you got to add the other bits to it. (power supply/arm/cartridge/Tramplin/keel)

It makes 2nd hand buying a cheaper option.

SCIDB