Objectivism is a myth...

No one in this hobby is objectivist, some just pretend to be... :banghead:

Even if one chooses everything with DBTs, (if there is anyone raise your hand), in the end he still chooses what he likes best, subjective... :NADowner:

We may use our head more or less, regarding specs and tests, but in the end every choice is subjective... :MILD:

Some enjoy getting the last ounce of their current setup with cables and other "tweaks", but, be it pride of ownership, pleasure of buying something new without the cost and hassle of new equipment, or real improvement, (I have done all of the above), it doesnt make us more or less subjectivist then the self called objectivists...

So, just let everybody play this hobby its own way, and enjoy the music and the movies... :beer:

 

I guess it all depends on how you define "objectivist", Antonio. If you choose it to mean, "I buy what sounds good to me", then you're right. And of course, none of us (well, perhaps most of us) don't buy hi-fi merely by reading the specs.

However, in our recent debates, "objectivist" has, it seems, taken on a slightly different meaning, namely, belief in improved sound qualities brought about by the use of "tweaks" with no rational explanation. I am firmly in the objectivist camp on this, not only because of the curse of a scientific education, but also because I have tried many of these tweaks and have found that they do nothing. I am naturally happy for the tweakers to tweak until their heart's content, just as long as they don't try to promote their particular personal preference to a law of the universe, which everyone has to hear, or be condemned as deaf/obtuse/unperceptive (I have been described as all of these things on different occasions!).

Meaning, of course, that I entirely agree with your last sentence.

 

I don't understand why DBT'ing is being seen as a criteria of objective or sujectist.

DBT'ing is simply a possible method of helping to choose kit. It's not about choosing on stat's and figures, it's still down to choosing what sounds best, just reMOving some of the outside influences.

Noticed this a few times in the threads lately.

Don't get it! No sir, I don't it it at all!

 

There is nothing wrong with "subjective choice". I for instance have a Levinson 390S - widely acclaimed to be a "good" CD player. In my DBT tests does it sound better than the significantly cheaper Benchmarkmedia DAC1 ? The answer is no.

I bought the Levinson because it looks nice, has a transport (the DAC1 does not), has a remote control (the DAC1 does not). I do not wax lyrical about the liquidity of the midrange or other tosh. I made a subjective choice about the looks and usuability rather than the sound. And paid quite heavily for it.

And it's the same story with the pre-amps I own: SCA2, CA2, Don Morrison ELAD - all bought for different purposes. I don't agonize about whether they sound better than anything else. I like ATC, so it made sense to buy their quite expensive SCA2 (used in my case).

Even power amps. I have a pair of Brytson power paks. I've owned Chord/Linn and Naim too, and the differences between them aren't worth a damn. The Brystons are more convenient and pump out enough power with low distortion that they were the no-brainer choice when I needed some amps recently. I didn't even audition them.

We are in 100% agreement. People do buy audio with their HEARTS and not their EARS. Luckily, most modern fronts ends work very well, so you can waste an awful lot of money, but chances are you will have pretty good sound anyway.

The only place where subjective choice plays a real role is loudspeaker systems. Speakers are very hard to DBT without elaborate setups. Of course, the hifi press is focused on this source first balony started in the 70's which simply doesn't apply today.

Buy the speakers you like the sound of subjectively, an amp with enough grunt to drive them and just about any CD player and your ahead of the game.

If you don't know what is subjectively right, buy a damn good pair of phones - Senn HD600's or Etymotics ER4S's and "tune" into what the music really sounds like. Then buy your speakers

Then again, there's plenty of DBT gathered evidence that shows that listeners prefer the sound of speakers with flat on axis response and smooth off-axis response. If you really don't know what speakers to buy, then these are two good criteria with which to choose - objectively.

The real tweaks are the acoustics ones - speaker position and room treatment, and even (gasp) EQ.

People who fiddle with cables and fancy equipment stands can have a lot of fun, but the sound isn't improving in any real way (it's all in the mind).

But we do!

I have 5 pairs of speakers I swap around. I MLSSA the room, and I'm confident it sounds great. I do my little bit of real tweaking, and then I have a lot of time to listen to music and argue with you lot (in the listening positioning with my laptop )

 

Hi dat, try Mana.

 

There is only one definition, using it for those who dont believe in tweaks is wrong, IMHO...

You can only say you never heard differences with tweaks, not that there arent any, otherwise you are calling liars all those who say they heard them, and I am not saying that none are liars...

Galileu and others went through that, with much important subjects, like life in Mars, wich is the latest big argument...

 

Here's my case against "fancy stands" (I'm not going to pick on Mana as such).

Firstly, getting good sound is all about positioning - both speakers and listener. If you have a set of stands which make repositioning speakers difficult, then you are unlikely to experiment enough with positioning - and could be missing out. A failure to get the speakers into the right position in length and width is unlikely to be remedied by fiddling with the height (eg. mana phases).

Second. Most speakers are designed for on axis use (ear level with tweeter/midrange). Any stands that doesn't get the speaker to the right height can have an effect on the sound - that I can't deny - but it is not necessarily a positive effect, and potentially, the fancy stand could be replaced by a cheaper on of equivalent height. As for stand construction, well, there are light rigid stands, along with very heavy (shot filled) stands, on the market - as there is no agreement on which works, it's likely that the construction of the stand is neither here nor there.

So, I'm all in favour of speaker stands - they are worth the effort, but it's not clear that mana's multi-layer approach buys you anything, and if it gets the speaker seriously off-axis (phase XXX), then it can change the sound, but pretty much any other stand of a similar height would do so too.

Equipment stands don't make a damn bit of difference. I bought Hutter ($750) on a lark and it sounded just like Ikea Corras ($20) with the (apparently) hyper microphony sensitive CDS2 on it (also bought on a whim.) To be fair, good furniture is quite expensive and the Hutter was almost sensibly priced and didn't look too bad.

Now, I'll concede that equipment stands can make an acoustic difference, in much the same was as any other fairly large object in a listening room. When a stand is filled with an assortment of boxes, I wouldn't be surpised to find that it acted much like a diffusor - a similar layour of boxes on similar shaped stands would have a similar effect. Again, there is no miracle..

The moral is, buy speaker stands of the right height which are easy to move around, and equipment stands with the appropriate number of shelves. If the wife likes the look of them, so much the better as a negotaiting chip to get the speakers into the right position

 

It's a shame this would be deleted within seconds if you posted it on the Mana forums

 

That is a sensible hypothesis. Never come across it before. One theory that should be easily put to the test. Just relocate all the stuffs outside the listening room and listen again to your choice of equipment stands. Then again it would be heresy for us not to display all our toys in the front of the room. Defeat the object of our hobby to make love to it visually when listening to the music. Hmm.... hope she is not reading this.

 

dat19 - do you have any links/references on the net giving guidelines on speaker/listener positioning?

Other than putting my speakers as far from the walls as is practical I really haven't experimented with positioning at all.

My room is 15m long by 4m wide (roughly) with the speakers firing down the length of the room. I sort of assuming that the length of the room makes it "easier" on speaker positioning as the level of any reflections from the rear walls are likely to be minimal.

Michael.

 

I use the "pratical" method when placing my speakers, and I may say it works very well, as at least Michael can testify from my last two homes... :MILD:

First I place them where I think they will sound better, but still convenient and reasonably unobtrusive, as far as possible from the back wall, without a subwoofer one should play with different distances until the balance bass/midrange sounds correct, otherwise you just use the subs to "fix" it...

Then I fine tune the distance to the side walls until I like the stage/frequency balance, then toe-in if the treble is not "enough"...

The stands must place the tweeter a bit above ear level...

Also, I try to alternate reflective with dead or difracting walls, take care of first reflections as possible, non reflective center table, etc... But nothing too radical, it is very important that I like the look of my room, or I wont enjoy myself...

 

You can read as much or as little as you like, but you really need to measure

One of the better packages I've used is:

http://www.etfacoustic.com/

And you can look at the website to see what is involved. It's not nearly as much hassle as it sounds like. It's not cheap, but then again it isn't nordost valhalla expensive either [You can even try a free test version with a RadioShack mike, but you only get one go ]

Some of the best thinking on speaker systems comes from Floyd Toole, and you find (a small selection of) his papers here:

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=120
http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=121
http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=122

They make substantially better reading than HiFi+

Most people feel the urge to experiment when they buy speakers that cause the room to boom - so I assume that isn't a problem you suffer (which is good). But then again, some additional movement of the speakers (or the chair) might help smooth out the bass.

I try to keep speakers away from walls to the side of the speakers in preference to the front/rear walls.

 

I have a copy and all the necessary bits with which to use it. I did use it (pretty successfully) to integrate my sub when I was using a sub. The response I managed was I think +-3dB from 20-200Hz.

I might give it another go and see what I can do (without the sub). I don't have a great deal of freedom to move the speakers so I'm hoping that relatively small changes (a few cm here and there) will be enough.

Thanks for the links.

Michael.

 

Hi Michael,

I've just read your remarks about Mana stands on pfm, and I have to say that you really don't know what you are talking about over there. Until you've tried it, how can you? No offence meant, btw.

It's not a 'tweak', it's a fundamental part of the hi-fi system, and as such, does have to be set up correctly to work properly. Having said that, Mr Pig's hyperbole about it sounding 'abysmal' if you do the nuts up too tight, is precisely that.

Regards,

James

PS sorry about OT post, please ignore.

 

Yes, I find ETF a very useful package, too.

Floyd Toole has written some thoughtful and interesting papers.

Have you seen the very first sentence that Harman use to describe themselves? "Harman International is a company of listeners"

 

No offence taken James. Why don't you sign up on PFM and join in the fun?

Michael.

 

He's banned.

 

I'm sure TonyL would let him back in if he asked nicely.
Michael.

 

Well, it would be very nice of him if he did let me back in, but I can't be bothered to argue with 'experts' like Dave Simpson. He used to be a Mana enthusiast, but now has an agenda with his Fraim, which NANA sold to him at a massive discount, allegedly.

I've heard a Fraim demo, and it sounded no better than the £300 rack with which it was being compared. Not bad, but not in the same league as Mana. The flaw in the Fraim's design is the three-point suspension under the glass, which leads to uneven weight distribution, i.e. more weight is supported by the rear ball-bearing, than by the front two. This is one reason why it doesn't work.

 

Your Nana is selling hifi stands to people you dont like?