Old ways vs new...

When I started this hobby, some 25 years ago, I would buy hifi mags once in a while, to stay informed, go to the stores to hear new gear, trying to understand what the reviewers where talking about, I didnt know anyone else in the hobby, just me and my music...

I would visit the record store every week, to look for new interesting CDs, they where brand new then, (not much choice, just like DVDs nowadays), and I knew all reputable interpreters and composers with good help from the Penguim catalog...

Today, we get spoiled brats that go to a dozen foruns, read a lot of reviews to get the lingo, and then think they know everything, so they come and give us shit about what we hear, they call us fool subjectivists that suck everything from dealers and reviewers, who happen to be in this business long before they could say mom...

Dont take me wrong, I appretiate the extra info and relationships we get from the WEB, but we also get a lot of interference and somehow the focus shifts to equipment rather than music, or movies... :SLEEP:

 

It's not just in hifi.

I've been using the Canon EOS system since 1992, and since I take a significant technical interest in addition to taking photographs, I have done extensive research into how the system works, as well as having experienced its behaviour over the last twelve years.

The someone who blamed their digital P&S for taking bad photos and spent $5000 on a canon DSLR and L series (pro) lenses and still gets bad photos and insists that there's something wrong with the camera refutes everything you tell them about the system. Before you ask, no this wasn't one specific person, but there's a great number of them (most of them congregate on dpreview, but they find their way elsewhere too).

Perhaps we should call this phenomina "Forumitis"? In the camera forums the people who put the gear above getting out and taking photos have been christened "Measurebators". Perhaps a new term for the objectivists?

 

Good analogy, I am still laughing... :ffrc: :ffrc: :ffrc:

It is like comparing SONY TVs with Loewe's, they look very impressive, but for someone that has done some photografy, like me, the colours are very thin, there is no depth, no detail on shadows, etc...

But the figures might be impressive, regardless...

 

Well I think you need to start by defining the terms.
I think 'subjectivist' appears to be coined by people who consider themselves...well subjectivist. They then use the term 'objectivist' as a term of abuse, with whatever meaning is convenient to their argument, when others have a contrary opinion. Perhaps we could use the alternative terms 'hysterical' and 'rational'?
My interest in Music and Audio covers over 25 years too, and I've owned almost every format except Elcaset and DCC in my time. I feel people are very frustrated with the choices nowadays

I really don't understand where the division comes from - we agree on far more far more than we disagree [in everything from audio to politics].
If I have an opinion regarding audio, it's that UK domestic users
are usually too predictable and unimaginative. That's an unfortunate consequence of the price/availability of houses and audio equipment. It's a shame that there is less variety in non-HT equip than ever before. I DIY because no-one makes the sort of equip I want, at a price I will pay [eg speakers] or at any price [pre-amps]. I don't reccomend DIY to non-technical people, it's just not worth the grief.
Tinkering about with piece of wire A or B is fine if it's a cheap way
of improving things, but let's see the bigger sound. You can have a portable radio that sounds clean and clear - because it ignores the bass and treble - but it will never sound big, effortless and clear. That takes some lateral thinking for both the room and hardware.
I would reverse the conclusion that tweakers have;
that THEY can hear more than the 'who cares' brigade. I say, it's easy to choose to forget the colourations of the room and speakers and become obsessed about small changes. As for 'modifying' commercial kit..most people should keep their hands out.

keep smiling all,

Graham C

 

Iaasc, an excellent term, maybe Master-bators would be more apt.
However your still stuck with they won't accept it for the following reasons.
1. It wasn't produced a full scale 3d computer modelling package, after years of extensive reaserch, simulated 'dead room' trails, KRELL computer analysis and constant remodelling.
2.Extensive DBT & blue curtain measurements on a daily 'fatigue free' sessions.
3.Pre anality quality control
4.Stateside master approval.
Only when these manditory conditions have been satisfied, does it go for pass off.
Remember there's a bit of objectist in every body

 

Excellent! Another thread about the objectivist/subjectivist debate - we haven't had one of those for ages

Michael.

 

We strive to be fashionable...

Anyway, there are more ways to look at it than directionality of cables, I am trying to explore different points of view, and, maybe, bring some light to this subject, if it is possible... :MILD:

 

Sorry, what are you saying here? Is the Loewe better than the Sony or worse in your opinion?

I might buy a new TV one day.

 

This thread started bad, and its getting worse..

A ''them and us'' mentality is emerging.

Stop it people, there is no them and us, only 'us' with a slightly different viewpoint.

 

I proposed in all seriousness - well almost - the terms Lone Ranger or Ranger for objectivists and Tonto for subjectivists, because it avoids the emotive element of the name calling that goes on and hints at the partnership that goes on - in the real world - between measuring, testing and listening.

 

Hi Ho Silver

 

Better, of course, IMHO...

 

Slightly, sure...

As I said before, there are no objectivists, we are all subjectivists, just some are naysayers... :MILD:

 

... is the refrain of the objectivist. But, as we moderate subjectivists prefer to say: Kimosabi.

 

Put me down for one of them, then. Very expensive?

... But are you sure there's a difference in picture quality? Is it better or just 'different'? Have you done the DBTs?

 

It doesnt cost more than the top Sonys, DBTs with TVs... :MILD:

 

I,m probably wrong (again )
But arn,t Leowe picture tubes supplied by Phillips ?

 

Come on Antonio, we've done this whole thing to death now .

What's the point in trying to drive a wedge between the two points of view? Calling objectivists "naysayers" is just as bad as calling subjectivists "gullible fools". Each point of view is valid and neither is calling the other a liar and there are similar numbers of people on both sides of the argument with a great deal of experience behind them - just as there are similar numbers on each side who are just armchair experts on the forums.

Suggesting that all objectivists are "spoilt brats" with no experience who just wander around forums with spec sheets is just rubbish I'm afraid. Your attempt to cast the subjectivists as holding the moral high ground is both wrong and extremely unhelpful

As for the focus being on equipment and not music, I'm afraid that's just how hifi forums are. It's about boys with toys and you know that aswell as I do. I don't think there's a single regular poster who hasn't posted significantly more in the Hifi section than in the Music section.

Michael.

 

Shit. No one told me there was a Music section.

 

You're right. I wasn't going to say anything but Loewe TVs are just Philips TVs in a nice box (and a not so nice price tag ).

The top of the range CRT TVs from all the brands have excellent picture quality, especially once you tweak the picture settings a little from the factory defaults which invariably are set for too highly saturated colours and too high contrast so they look "good" in the showroom.

Michael.