PA type amps and speakers... recommendations?

Yes, I think most people would be surprised if they could ever measure the true frequency response of their system in their room. All we normally get to see are the "smoothed" frequency response plots and those hide some serious dips (i.e. 10-30dB suckouts). Caused by comb filtering and the like.

Playing gear outside avoids most of those isssues. It's as close to anechoic conditions as you will get outside a laboratory.

 

would be interesting to see how much opening all the windows and doors in a room would affect things...

 

yes!

the studio stuff like the yamaha being offered above is used in the studios that produce the music we buy. it is industry standard and of no compromise construction.
if you put the same kind of stuff into a known hifi brand box you would need a mortgage to buy it.

so are we being taken for mugs? most definately!
you pay for the naim lol. then chuck in the most overlooked fact, who has ears good enough to hear the miniscule differences between a 500 quid system and a 10k system?
ive got both and there certainly aint 9 and a half grands worth of difference.

hifi is about self satisfaction and status. i wonder how many members listen to the music? and not the system playing it.

 

This might be worth watching. Not sure what sort of maket there is for these so you may get one slipping through the net at a low price.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Crown-Amcron-...ryZ68247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

If you want to take the room out of the equation then you need to add one of these to the mix:



http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/inde...Digital_Graphic_Equalizer&browsemode=category

Another ridiculous bargain at £194. You need to add the £40 ECM8000 measuring microphone to get the best out of it.

 

Technobear:....

These may be a very stupid question but...

Can I run the DEQ2496 in between my pre-amp and powers to get room correction facilities for all my sources in one fell swoop?

I originally got the impression that it was digital input from a CD player only. However, on closer inspection it appears to have an analogue (albeit balanced) input and output too.

Thanks

 

You'd probably get very wet this time of year...

 

I think you've answered your own question there

The user manual is available to download:

http://www.behringerdownload.de/DEQ2496/DEQ2496_ENG_Rev_B.pdf

 

I think I probably did

I looked at the user manual before I posted. I think I'll actually read it then maybe try one out too.

Thanks

 

My problem with Behringer is the build quality and poor design in many instances (the mixers are pretty awful).
For PA work, the fundamental requirement for all equipment is reliability. Behringer does not come up to scratch in this respect. Home use is different.

This device won't take the room out the equation. It can help with many room issues when used wisely and sparingly.
It won't make a bad room great - although it may well make it tolerable, and it certainly won't turn bad speakers into good ones...

 

I haven't had the chance to play with one of those yet.

I just have a problem with any room correction really. How they manage to operate without screwing up certain aspects of a systems time response doesn't make sense to me, i.e. if it's EQ'ing in the freq. domain, what's happening to the transient response, etc?

I'm sure things are moving on but the ear/brain isn't easily fooled. I have always been taught to only look at EQ'ing minimum phase problems, nothing else.

Anyway, going off topic and I'm sure the DEQ thing jas been done to death before. I want "Owl" to get the loudest party system possible for £150!!

 

I think that mostly applied to their older stuff. The two items I have are fine in terms of their construction.

We all know that bass trapping a room is the best answer. There are a couple of problems with this approach however.

1) Most of us don't have enough space to start building bass traps into our rooms. The rooms are too small to begin with.

2) £194 doesn't buy much bass trap!

 

Yes, bass traps really aren't a domestic option unless you have a dedicated room.

I think the trick is not to be too aggressive in using things like the DEQ (and always trust your ears).

 

Andy

I've seen the term 'transient response' used frequently, what does it actually mean in the context in which you used it above?

I'd like to hear the DEQ and what it does. However but I would be wary of buying outright first because I have always assumed that putting another device in the signal pathway is a bad thing. My speakers are reasonably good.

Thanks

Scott

 

I'll give you an example.

Say you have processor that has picked up on strong room mode at 80Hz, it then attenuates it by say 6dB in an effort to "control" it.

If you play something with nice long sustained bass notes (cello, bass guitar) that will excite that mode, then the percieved room response will probably be quite good.

If you play a source with a fast attack in the bass (say, percussion), the direct signal level that passes your ears first (and is VERY important) will also be 6dB down around 80Hz. A fast signal like that will not really excite the room mode to same degree as as sustained note. So really the processor is sacrificing what could be a very linear freq. reponse of the direct signal to allow a good frequency response for the combined direct plus reflected energy

That's the problem I have with all this DSP and they may be a lot further on than I think. IMO, they are not even close and we will still be talking about in 30 years time.

 

That explains it

Thanks

 

Can't say as I'm having any problems with transient response here at technobear towers. If it couldn't rock then I would have kept the hifi and sold the Behringers. In my experience, using narrow parametric filters to zap the room modes does not affect the perceived transient response in any way.

One point to note about the Behringer DEQ is that the frequencies of the filters are fixed. I'm lucky as my main room mode is at 50 Hz and this exactly coincides with one of the Behringer's filters. If my room mode were at 45 Hz or 55 Hz then the Behringer would not deal with it very well and I would have to resort to an analogue parametric EQ (or perhaps a *much* more expensive digital EQ).

 

Hi all,

I myself have been thinking of adding something like a Behringer DEQ2496 for a system at work.

I am hoping to put something together in some sort of flight case/mobile robust rack with the aim of driving something like a pair of Cerwin Vega V-152 PA speakers (which I have to collect and pay for shortly). I may also require some smaller robust speakers to fit into the corners on a permanent basis though.

The room is very very large (maybe 80+ft by 80+ft, maybe bigger) with a lot of bare/reflective surfaces and a tiled ceiling suspended on wire, the room is constructed of office type plasterboard with insulation on the back on an alloy inner frame within a huge warehouse, floor is concrete.

The speaker sensitivity is 103db with a 300w power handling, but without spending a fortune, what power amplification and pre amplification of the PA type is suitable? Is there any sort of budget valve pre with silent operation and XLR? I have been looking at second hand Mesa Boogie, though it seems a little underpowered and expensive.

It is for my personal use at work when no one is around or when I am doing overtime, so I am not sure if £200 to £300 per box is too cheap or if I should just run it off an old HiFi. (I listen to everything from DUB to seventies acoustic etc etc, but average Hi Fi speakers just don't cut the mustard, we have already went through a few bookshelf models and blown tweeters, not to mention cosmetic damage due to the use within the warehouse)

Also of consideration is the length of speaker cable required, as my office where the equipment will be located is in one corner, and I have to wire each corner of the above workshop. What should I be looking at and will there be any amplifier problems with the wrong choice?

 

Actually I don't think it is particularly. 194 quid will buy a lot of books and a couple of Ikea bookshelves - this really works.
Behringer is OK I guess for home use. I wouldn't touch it for paid work, though.

Joel

PS any reasonable analog EQ will work fine for adjusting bass response for PA work. And even very good ones can be picked up for peanuts s/h.

 

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice.

Decided to abandon the idea of getting a sub, as suggested.

In the end we got some large home-built speakers off ebay... hooked up to an assortment of amps we already owned.

The big black speakers were £70 and the ones on top were £20.

The big ones actually don't sound bad. The twenty quid ones aren't amazing on their own but added a bit of extra volume.

I think it can be safely said that it did the trick, come Saturday night!

It was interesting to note that with this setup, we didn't seem to have to turn the volume up as much as we have done in the past with less beefy speakers, in order for it to sound good.