Planning to buy an entirely new system.

Nocebo is easy to deal with.
Any cable listening panel needs to consist of those convinced that the differences are real and not just down to simple basic electronic matching.
I agree that there is little point stuffing a group full of those already convinced that no difference will be heard.
I've witnessed a number of times people absolutely convinced that they can identify the sound of a cable in a sighted dem. Certain cables have a reputation for a certain sonic signature and sure enough this is heard on first listen.
However, when you make the same test blind and throw in a couple of alternatives, suddenly the ability to detect the cables evaporates.
Strange as it may seem this doesn't just happen in my tests - there are plenty of examples out there.

Anyway you must be bored by now so I'll end by saying go listen to some good kit and stop worrying about wire

Night.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

I was never planning to spend a fortune on cables, but I'll try to find some way to blind test before making any decisions.

@ cooky: Yeah, the speaker placement was making things worse at first. The speakers got more bassy as they were played, so my initial locating ended up boomy.

Actually - does all this 'worn in' stuff having a solid foundation in science? I'm sure the sound of my speakers has changed as I've played them... maybe it's just my perceptions?

Something else that really doesn't make sense:

D&B breaks my amp. At my old flat, I was sure that playing D&B through my mixer would lead to crackling when I then played CDs, especially delicate classical/piano stuff.

I then moved house, and didn't set my decks up for a long time, and the crackling stopped. The day after I set my decks up, crackling started again. I've just had a period of not mixing because my styli are badly worn and I've had trouble getting replacements (lost in the post) - I finally felt desperate for a mix, and the next day crackling had returned.

This is really loud noticeable crackling.

When this sort of weird stuff happens with hi-fi, it does make you feel like it's all a bit magical.

 

One last thing Im gunna say cos I know me and the guys have different views, maybe u can explain this situation to the guys in sevenoaks, not so they can try and sell u something which is drastically overpriced but in order for them to give u the opportunity to take some cables home and simply test for urself.

As for speaker placement pull them away from the corners a bit, dont run them through ur sub but direct to ur amp, they will take time to run in and open so yes ur right, also u can consider a stone slab or granite plinth for underneath them this will tighten the base right up! Especially if u have floorboards.

As the other guys said its no point us going on about cables and things, u just need to do as much testing as possible before u commit to anything.

And to Cookie its £2400 of cable on £750 speakers They are on the way out the door tho mind for some Neat Momentum 3i's and I got the cable for £500 off a mate......a good deal in a sense but I still think that cables are well overpriced! I also wish that I could be happy like u and Rob with cheaper cables it would leave more to spend on quality equiptment.

Anyway all the best to all u guys and happy listening!
Dan

 

I think the bass from my speakers is a problem caused/made worse by my room.

There's a bit of a divide in the middle, where it was formally a separate sitting room and dining room. Now bass just seems to collect there (which is where I often listen to music). When I'm further back, past the slight divide, the bass sits far more naturally with the rest of the music.

Is there anything I can do to help this in my normal listening positions?

I will speak to seven oaks about everything when I'm next there too.

Thanks.

 

Have u tried toeing ur speakers in a little more?

I dont fully understand what u mean by the divide has it left ur room in a sort of T shape?

U can get room acoustic corner panals but if there is a void on one side of the room it is not really gunna help, try toeing in first and bring ur speakers a little closer together and away from the side walls and like I said before go to b&q or something and get a couple paving slabs for £1.50 if they work u could get something prettier later

 

When the wall was taken out, the edges of it were left in. About 30cms worth around one side, and the roof, and 60cms on the other side.

I've not done the paving slab thing yet, but it does seem to be a problem that resolves when I alter my location in the room, so I'm assuming it's the room that's more of a problem than the speakers.

The speakers are about as far away from walls as I can manage in my room. Maybe I should have a bit more of a play there too though.

Ta.

 

I see if ur sat kinda parrallel with the sticky out bit of wall u could be getting some boom there!

Try looking at one of the corner room acoustic panels that are available they are made to soak up boomy bass in a corner, as what I can gather that bit sticks out by 30cm on a 90 degree from the side wall, one of those panels will solve it, there are also custom designs around on the net, u may be able to knock one up, even ask the DIY guys in the other section of the forum

 

Those bass traps are the ugliest things I've ever seen. I think I do need something like that though.

There are a pair here for £50: http://www.xlprosystems.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=505

This one's £176: http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/ (hmm - the link's funny: Advanced Acoustics Corner Sound Trap Panel for £176)

Does anyone have any suggestions? I really don't listen to music very loud, but currently some bass tones are really troubling in certain positions, and it would be great to not have them stand out so much.


I've never really thought about room harmonics much before.

This is one of those things where, the more time and money you put in, the more problems you find. Maybe I'd be better off meditating on the nature of human existence, and finding peace and acceptance with my current circumstances? Or maybe this last little tweak will be enough...

 

U can get a nice piece of silk which is supposed to be the best material to use to cover the front so it looks nice, they are actually supposed to be better covered with it than without, many companies offer a range of different silks when purchasing them, so u can have it suit ur decor, simply pull it taught across the front and fix in at the sides

 

Undoubtedly (in my view) correct.

A friend with a laptop and mic is a lot of use here, a cheaper solution I have used is room modelling software (google 'CARA').

The construction of the walls and floors, the room size, the position of the speakers within the room, the position of the furniture, it's type and construction and of course products specifically bought to assist sonics all make huge differences.

The problems with just buying room treatment equipment and whacking it in place - you can't answer questions like ...

1) what frequencies are causing problems?
2) what was the measurement like before, and what was it like afterwards?


As a friend of mine once said, ''people are more than happy to spend thousands of pounds on hifi, but when it comes to spending mere hundreds on making it sound as it should, they become unwilling''.

This mate, gave up making bass traps and sound panels and now does something else for a living.


Let me ask a question - what bass frequency is causing your problem?
How many DB would you like to cut it by in order to get a flatter response?
Has the product you've bought fixed the problem?


This is ''need to know'' stuff...

I reccomend a calibrated mic, and a CD of test tones as a method of at least checking it.... not as good as laptop/measurement mic/ realtime software - but it gets you there the long run...



.... all sound a bit much like hard work?

There are speakers out there with mic and software built in, restrictive but gets you there..

http://www.studiospares.com/Studio-Monitors/JBL-LSR4326P-Biamped-Monitor-X-1/invt/425670

 

Thanks for the help people.

Here's plan of my room, if it's of any use.

The speaker at the top right is now further from the corner.

The bed is less long than it appears.

There's an unmarked 30cm 'beam' across the roof connecting the bit of wall with the fuse box to the bit of wall opposite.

We've also now got PC, table, chairs, CD storage, etc in the bottom half of the room. (It's quite a full room).




I can't guess what frequencies it is causing problems, it sound like 'mid-high bass'? It's most noticeable on classical music, when certain low notes will just really thump through, out of keeping with the rest.

I recently put my head in the alcove at the top of the room while listening to some dub step, and it was just bass echoing around in there.

My father had some mic that helped auto-adjust the sound for his surround sound receiver. I'm not sure if I'd be able to use that?

I found this CARA thing: http://www.rhintek.com/tutorial/aura.php It looks primarily designed for helping people layout their room... I'm fairly limited in the changes I can make, as I'm trying to use my room for so many different things.

I can't really move much about, and it's lucky I've been able to get in as much as I have (we're not going to be able to get somewhere bigger!)

 

I would like another opinion from someone but maybe ur room is way to long and speakers are struggling to fill it and alot of boom is collecting at the rear of the room, what type of walls and floor do u have also?

 

It's a wooden floor. The walls are old stone walls - pretty solid.

I don't think the speakers are too small for the room. If anything, the opposite imo. They certainly look big in the front room!

It's hard to say though, as the room is kind of massive, but in lots of different sections. There are no boundaries, so sound flows into the kitchen, and up the stairs. It can also sound boomy in the semi-enclosed front section.

Well - I think I'm off to seven oaks to buy the leema amp. Kind of annoying knowing that the amp is going to do nothing to solve the most annoying problem with my sound at the moment.

I'll avoid spending anything on a CD player, and hopefully have some cash for room refinements.

Ta.

 

wow.

your speakers would have difficulty to be in much worse places, sonically.

One is stuffed in a corner (with all the room gain that provides, the other is not - complete anomoly), there is a bay window causing undoubted havoc, soft reflections on one side up to a certain height (bed) and nothing on the other.


Those JBL speakers I put a link to would be perfect.

Spending thousands and putting the stuff where you have it now, well I think you will continue with the room problems, just with some frequencies marginally improved.

You need some serious eq going on if you're to have a hope - those JBLs , or perhaps a behringer deq

http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_deq2496_ultracurve_pro.htm

 

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/deqmod_e.html

 

I think as the everone has already said that the room is quite conjusted and in the arranging all the stuff together will make more complex. It would be better to have some best place.

 

I have to admit that when working out hot to ram things in, the only sonic consideration was to have the speakers pointing in the right direction for everything (which was more difficult than you'd expect).

The speaker that was in the corner is now not (so much), but has a different anomaly of being in front of the start of the bay while the other is a bit further from the bay than shown.

One problem I'm worried about with using electronic correction is that the problems seem really variable depending upon where you are in the room. If they correct for one spot it could just make things worse elsewhere?

Am I just doomed? I don't think I can do much rearranging without surrendering some fairly important practical considerations. Save me!


As a side issue, when I was in Sevenoaks there was a Leema rep who was very pro expensive cables and bi-wiring speakers. I had a look at the cables and the Chord £15/meter looked about 1.5mm thick to me.

 

Hmm... most of our listening probably take place in bed - but that tends to be more relaxed listening. It also a bit of a strange position, so might require some extreme eq-ing?

I listen to quite a lot of music from behind my decks. I'm often feeling rather ill, but when well enough I like to be able to move about a bit while listening - this is my favourite way of listening to music. One of the advantages of the Dalis was that they sounded good in lots of different positions.

 

Reading this (http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cones/speak.html) has made me think it could be a good idea to remove my speaker spikes - or mount them on coins? The could stop bass traveling through my floor so much. Or I could use Dan's idea of a paving slab, on top of the carpet.

Or maybe neither will make much difference...

 

okay

here is my final 2p, as I feel I am thread-dominating..

I think that you're right - room correction is done at the point of the measurement mic, which is where you're sat most often.

However the 'bad room position sound' would still be better than it is now, which is of course all over the place throughout the room.


If you just dont want to go this route at all, consider speakers designed for wall placement.

They are out there, like Audionote for example. At least then you are using a near wall position with a speaker designed to be used this way..