Pre+Power vs Bi-Amp

Am considering adding a power amp to my integrated Arcam A85 and would appear that I have the option of bi-amping (or more-accurately - passive bi-amping) OR making the A85 a pre-amp to the new power amp... which would be sonically superior?? My speakers are rated at 150W (GR20's).:JPS:

 

How about option 3..

Sell the A85 and put the money towards a bigger fatter integrated amp?

 

Actually the A85 sounds extradordinarily good through my GR20's... whether its that glassy-bell tone of a nice out-of-phase Strat or the subterranean air moving that you can find in abundance on, for example, Depeche Mode's "Vibrator" or more recently Voodoo Child's "Baby Monkey" - it does the job... just thinking about a bit more grip on the drivers to perhaps improve the attack a tad. My main regret currently is having been subjected to the "idea" that super-duper RFI shielded mains cables improve things... once that seed of doubt is planted in your head and a pair of hugely expensive cables are placed in your hands on a loan - it is amazingly difficult to listen with "untainted" ears - your brain is determined to find a difference whether its there or not... the only way to do this test properly is have a friend secretly change (or not change...) the cables... I almost got to the stage of hearing voices in my head due to my frustration at my "inability" to hear a difference - then I simply realised there was not a difference. Brilliant marketing strategy though - there's nothing more powerful than the power of suggestion fuelled with an individual's own stupid ego. I know I digressed here - sorry - but I am writing this having just completed a few days teasting these wretched things.

 

I like option 3 the best. (although it must be said that I am biased because I am not a great fan of Arcam amps). But if you like that Arcam/MA sound, why not add another and biamp. Biamping worked well with my old dpa amps.

 

Lodger,

Welcome.

From the way you described the Monitor Audio GR20 they seems to sounds great. Even appear to be easy to drive. How much space do they need to be place from the back wall in your room?Looks like you may need to borrow an additional power amp and an integrated to compare for yourself at home to justify the upgrade. Are you looking for secondhand? Good shops should let you audition 2nd gears if that is why you are looking for advice here.

Recent poll suggest about half of us here seems to have a healthy scepticism with these wretched things as you cutely refer to them. However, you must not condemn the possibility that they could make a difference else you incur the hostility of the other half. One learns this the hard way.

 

I hope this doesnt turn into yet another cable thread. We have had enough of these recently.

 

***ERRATUM*** Apologies to all... the more discerning of you will have noticed my incorrect reference to the Depeche Mode album... of course, I meant to say "Exciter" - not "Vibrator" - for some reason I got my sex toys muddled up.

 

Wolfgang - I bought the Monitors purely on sound after listening to everything the guy had in the shop and I had no option but to put my money where my ears were - as you know they are expensive (certainly for myself) and it took some serious commitment from me. I console myself with the fact that it is unlikely I will need to upgrade them, ever... and also the fact that the only remaining upgrade path is a vertical one (i.e. simple) - e.g. DAC or, as previously mentioned, amplification. Regards speaker positioning - during the break-in period (something which I thought was a bit mythical but seems to be true!) I found the soundfield from each speaker initially quite straight and narrow and so a reasonable amount of toe-in... as time has gone by I have required slightly less toe-in and they are now doing the "disappearing" act well. I have them about 8 inches from back wall (at their closest point) and my walls are of the stud-wall variety - yet despite this I get I nice defined bassline... I suspect that if I had brick walls things would be even more fun. But as it stands they are beautiful so who cares. I have not tried them further into the room due to space restrictions - I am tempted but fear I might accidentally improve things further and end up with a major furniture re-design situation (i.e. would have to suspend the sofas from the ceiling)!!...

 

If only life were that simple

 

P85 difference - and woes

I run A85/P85 to my ProAc Studio125s, A85 running the treble and P85 running the bass. There is a huge difference in bass tightness in particular. (The P90 is just a rebadged P85, in case you did not realise).

How do I know there is a big difference? Because my P85 keeps blowing its internal fuse. It has been back to Superfi three times now and they keep replacing/resoldering bits and pieces but to no avail... It has just gone into the Arcam's own hospital for kill-or-cure surgery. No votes for reliability then. Very frustrating.

The listening experience is not the same without the P85, not as engaging, but I can't comment on how the combo compares with other integrateds as I have not heard them with my very own speakers in my very own room - and with my very own cables of course... But if you like the A85 - and some of us do - then ading the P85 or P90 will be a real treat.

Good luck.

 

You could probably sell your A85 (plenty of awards, they hold their value pretty well) and upgrade to an FMJ A32 for less than a P85 would set you back - just something to consider.

 

Yeah i had problems with reliability with the A85 as well as someone else on the hifichoice forum(i had 2 he had 3 replacements b4 giving up).
I would go the A32 route over adding a P85 or you could try the Primare A30.1 a cracking Amp or maybe a different power Amp altogether and use the A85 as a pre.
Glad you like the GR20's nice fast bass although i felt they were to soft sounding and not detailed enough at the top end but certainly fun.

Curt

 

It would seem a waste to only use an integrated as a preamp, if you like it's sound. Do you need to only consider Arcam? If you look at the manuals/websites, you should be able to find the pre-out levels. You could then look for other power amps with matching specs [or power amps with a higher gain than the Arcam PA, if you can make/buy attenuated cables to connect from pre>power.

If you find out the numbers, there's plenty of people on this site who could do the maths for attenuated cables. I dare say Russ Andrews would make attenuated cables to any requirements. Maybe Omiga audio might also??]

 

Here's another optioN: consider using the A85 as a power amp and find yourself a nice high quality preamp. IME the preamp makes a surprisingly large difference to the sound, and is often overlooked. A new preamp wouldn't be quite as macho or satisfying as a big meaty power amp, but I reckon it would have at least as much influence on the sound.

My own recommendation would be the ATC CA-2 - a wonderful little preamp with impeccable performance for the money. Best thing is if you hunt around you can usually find them secondhand for around the £400 mark, sometimes less. (They're £750 new.)

Dunc

 

An example of the kind of tasty amp you could have if you went for one better amp instead of two... ooh yum yum


Only 1,400 at the emporium second hand.

 

Nice photo... but I am being realistic - my system is Mid-Level and is likely to remain a Mid-Level system given my financial constraints so please don't flaunt your shiny objects of unaffordable desire at me... The issue regards A85/P85 reliability that was raised here is beginning to worry me but I will have to sweat it out. I'm thinking that maybe I ought to be bi-amping so as soon as I can scrape to money together...

 

sorry, must admit I dont know how much p85s are..

I was presuming they are 600-800, and youd get perhaps 300 second hand for your amp? - that would get you in the ballpark for a second hand V20...

Its amazing the quality you can get second hand if you look long enough and hard enough... theres no reason why you have to stay mid-fi... Ive seen high end second hand amps for low prices quite often...The same shop has Alchemist monoblocks in at 800 for the pair for example... not to mention all the classifieds around.. you'd be suprised how many of us have bought high end equipment for mid-fi prices (myself included )

Cheers

Chris

 

i'd also agree with going for high(er) fi second hand over 'polishing the turd' that is the arcam
for about 1000 ukp (which i guess would be your budget if you sold the 85 and put the cash you were thinking of using for the power amp in the pot) you could get yourself a very good integrated or pre / power.
i've heard an arcam fmj integrated with a power amp through ma gold speakers (i think they were 60's but not sure - tone?) and althiough they had a massive stereo image they didn;t have much drive or musicality - even though they were being driven by a 2 box wadia cd front end.
if you do decide to stick with the arcam and get a power amp i'd say your best bet is to play to it's strengths and go the bi-amp route. the pre section won;t be improved if you don;t use the internal power amp and tbh i think the power amp is pretty much the same as the integrated's internal amp anyway so i'de use everything you've got to pummel the m/a's into submission through raw power.
cheers


julian

 

JU,

Twas the GR20's, even had 4 apa 7.5's on them at one point, although they didn't really do them justice. went loud though if a trifle hard. They running Isolda dct 300 for both speaker and i/c at the time.
Pass X350 held em down (Nice piece of kit), the gamaut D200 was ok as well, Dynvector HX 1.2 was pretty fair, if analitical, good stage though. The Chorld 1200C hum...Great if you like removing paint from walls (chords require carefull matching)
A decent upgrade(for not a lot of outlay) can be had by binning the M/A caps and ceramic resistors for 'M' caps or cardas golden Ref's, and some Caddock 1% power resistors.
Maybe the Nad 300 might be worth a punt too.