Problems with tests

Surley it should be straight forward to conduct a listening test where we can scientifically prove whether a certain item improves sound or not in a given hifi system.
(Lets use a cable as an example through out, and by cable I dont just mean the wire but the whole thing connector and any sheilding used and insulation)
The best test is usually held to be a "blind" one prefearably when the subject/s dont even know what they are being tested for before hand.
In this test a system is setup and various cables are subsituted for each other a the subject asked to comment on any diffrences heard.
Sometimes the substitutions are fake just to help confuse the issue and add some suggestion into the matter.

But when examined closely even this test has limitations, and we cannot always form a reliable answer from it.
First problem is the music and system used.Is the person familiar with that piece of music and on that system?If not the subbject now has the added problem of learning that piece or how it sounds on that system.
Would we then be testing the diffrences between cables or the ability of the testie to remmber a piece of music and the way it is reproduced acurately in a short period of time and to describe it in a clear and understanable way?

Second problem is the changing of the cables themselves.The process or putting on and removing a lot off cables will effect the mechanical connections of the equipment and the cable itself.
The metal of the plug if tight may"clean" the socket of oxides slightly each time it is taken on or off.
Or plug itself may pick up dirt from the connector or vise versa if there is a fine layer of dust on the socket(which there will be if expossed for any lenght of time)

It would have to be made sure that all the conntacts are keep clean in order to avoid this effect.

The third problem would be volume level.Certain diffrences may be more or less aparrent at different sound levels,a varietywould need to be tried.(But some cables may increase the volume of the music slightly if so the volume control should not be touched as potion on the control effects the sound of most pre amps.)

Another thing to consider is , "what exactly is an improvment?"
What may be better to one person may not be to all.Aspects that I notice in music or find important may not matter to you .Therefore a definate goal should be set for the subjects to listen for.Listen for bass depth or treble sweetness for example.
Also we should note the condistions of the subject.
Is he/she relaxed in the mood for music, is there pressure on him?
This does effect your ability to notice small details or to care about them.For example if in a pub there is music on but i will not notice treble quality extra as I am doing other things an dont care.
At home it is different and if I want to relax and listen small things may stand out to me, my brain is now focused on the music and more aware of what is happening in that regard.

There are more things i can mention but am getting hungery so wount for now.
The point is that Blind test can an do work but you must take all factors into account to do a true test, other wize you are testing the humans ability rather than the diffrences in a component.

 

Although, just because a cable (or any other piece of equipment) is technically accurate doesn't mean that it's better than anything less accurate.

Some may prefer it but this isn't always the case.

Mark Levinson/Krell have been mentioned in the passed for being technically astute but far from enjoyable to listen to. For some, the LP12 is the opposite of this; technically many regard it as being flawed but for many it is still the reference tunrtable.

Just a thought .

 

Blind Testing is the Gold Standard in virtually every field of research.

The problems you have mentioned are good examples. They are related to the technical difficulty that you may encounter trying to set up a proper comparison. These tests could fail if is done poorly. However, Hi Fi is a hobby and if done for fun, how strict do you wish to apply it is up to you.

Some Hi Fi manufacturers take their Research and Development Programme very seriously and they do use blind testing in the secret of their lab and factory.

 

[RANT]
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Why the hell are so many people on this forum banging on about blind testing? Lets just get on with enjoying the music that we get from our systems.

If someone likes the effect an expensive cable has in their system thats great, if someone else thinks cables are waste of money and sticks with cheap cables thats great too. Each to their own.

Lets talk about something more interesting!
[\RANT]

 

One personal test my mates and I 'designed' for testing interconnects.

You need a CDP with 2 analog outputs.
An amplifier with 2 analog inputs.
2 or more interconnects.
1 music CD of your own choice.
Ask your mates to select the amplifier input (between interconnect A or interconnect B).
Plays the same tract as many times as you wish until you sure you know what is A and what is B. If your friends are of devious mind check both are in the same play back volume and there are no audible or visible cue.

Then your mates choose one input in secret.
You tell them whether they have selected A or B.
Then you exchange role.

Now start pissing each other for fun.

 

But, but............

I thought part of the fun is we get to piss each other whether mine is better then yours.

 

Blind Testing is worthless, because of experimenter bias.

Double Blind Testing is the "Gold Standard", where the person conducting the test does not know the "outcome".

 

Sorry. My mistake. My test as above is Single Blind Trail.

You win this one.

 

Why do people get so upset on this forum every time blind testing is mentioned. Is it because it potentially debunks their snake oil myths. I do agree that its a hobby, but as I have myself been told from you lot, if I dont like it, then I shouldnt read it, surely that should apply to you as well.

 

[COUNTERRANT]
I may only be speaking for myself, but I think most people who are interested in this are just pissed off that so many companies can get away with making outrageous claims without backing them up, and capitalise on what may be simply psychological effects.

And of course, if you don't care about it, you don't have to get involved in the discussion.
[/COUNTERRANT]

Dunc

 

Dunc,

Well in that case just dont buy their products! No one is forcing anyone to buy expensive cables. If people buy them and like what they do, then what's the problem? Why do people have to keep on and on about it? I think the cable naysayers have made their point now.

 

As have the cable yay-sayers, I think.

This is all getting frightfully dull and repetitious, on both sides of the debate. Note to self: don't read any more threads about cables, unless you're having trouble getting to sleep.

-- Ian

 

Just about everyone is more than digusted will the price of more than a smattering of companies, not just claiming the moon on a stick, and wanting to charge Nasa style cash for it, in complete agreement here. Be it electronics/cables/isolation/tweeks
Blind testing, double blind testing, reverse angle trouser merchant testing, fun for all
If the therorists are correct, then one piece of wire with the same cap/ind/double opposed twisted pairs sounds the same, and will make no difference at all.
So that makes every one who's spent more than £50 on cables (any type) a complete twat and a sap, so all those people who have bought cables over £50 are completely deluding themselves, and using this as a placebo. Dr Frued would have his work cut out here maybe ?
and the more you go on about, the more you 'convince/assure' yourselves of the conclution
We use a basic Pioneer A400 gte/superdac/Rauk Broadswords(hardly the most revealing speaker in the world) cheapy attcam stands and cdfix as a transport, basic isolation transformers,stock power leads, so this pretty close to an average system, no frills, buit a fair sound.
We can tell differenices between cables (whoevers) be it small or pretty notiveable, where we change the mains, the cdp the dac and or speaker cables, without question, no we don't have golden ears, and the system is super dopper, but IT and DOES highlight/show differenices between components.
And so far, It's cost under £1k, it's transparent and fairly revealing, until you actually listen to a system that is capable of showing a difference, (be it small of large), and if then you still can't hear a difference fair enough, don't automaticaly assume that it's the same because it isn't. W.m.

Ian, we agree on something (I'll try not to do it again mate ok)

 

Yes Ian, Agreed. I think from now on I will follow your lead.

 

how much is that lead then?

 

Ooer missus!! :ffrc: The mental images which flashed through my mind when I read that sentence first off! :shame:

 

Indeed it does reveal the state of your mind to even dare to admit it.

 

Tony,

I know that inflection can be lost in writing, so i'll add that my question is not one borne of antagonism.

A cable is a relatively non-complex electro-mechanical device. One which has a series of measurable electro-mechanical parameters. Any potential difference in sonic character must, then, be as a consequence of a differing set of measurable parameters. Naturally, the measured change must be directly relevant to a potential change in sonic character (ie the change not simply being a difference in capacitance, for example, but that the capacitance of one cable can be proven to be directly relevant to a change in sonic character - which is simple in mathematics).

These 'change' variables can, then, be isolated, and applied in mathematics to prove/disprove their effect. Significantly, much work exists that essentially disproves any such effect in most cable types. Without a measured counter-argument from the cable industry, surely we are left with only two conclusions: that audible differences just 'happen', and that (unbelievably) we are unable to resolve why, or that audible differences simply do not exist.

 

Surely, if you have to go to the extent of 'learning' a piece of music in order to discern whether there is an improvement or not, then that 'improvement' is not of the order of magnitude to warrent paying any attention to it!?

If something is so subtle and miniscual, that it is indistinguishable unless placed under a magnifying glass, then it's relevance under 'normal' operating conditions - i.e. 'listening' to a piece of music, as opposed to examining its internal stucture of matrices, molecular order, and leading edge quotient - is zero?!

If we attempted to solve a 1000 piece off the shelf jigsaw from Toys r' us, but then subjected it to the microscope, we would be sad to learn that we had not in fact connected the pieces correctly, as there would still be gaps visible between the interlocking surfaces. I don't think your average grandad or jigsaw puzzle dilletante would really give a shit though as they proudly paraded the finished article on the family dining table. (Unless of course they were a piece missing!). They would struggle to see past the picture. The likelihood is that they would soon be stalking the shelves for their next fix, with the possibility of feasting on a 5000 piece leviathan with saucy vibrant colours, not sauntering round B&Q looking for a tube of molecular super glue.



There are a lot of science worshippers about as well.

 

Hi TestTone

I am by nature sceptical of cables and their improvements on hifi systems.

I can confirm without question that the two interconnect cables I heard at Tonys (Omiga Audio) have an immediate and very noticeable different sonic character. For reference sakes, these were the liberator and the outlander.

This difference in sound may be measurable in capacitance or in another way. My scientific knowledge is limited so I wont get into that.

What I can confirm is that they 2 interconnects I heard have a very obviously different character. Obvious and substantial infact.

Whether an individual has a preference, or can explain the differences scientifically are different questions.

Why not visit Omiga and listen?

Chris