Purchasing first serious hifi.

Ok, for the last 7 years or so I have been listening to a fairly basic setup based around a Technics CD player, NAD C320BEE and a pair of Quad 11Ls, as that was what I could afford aged 17. Now that I have finished with education and am earning full time, I'm starting to put away money towards buying a pretty substantial upgrade. The basic premise being that assuming I don't win the lottery in the near future that it will last for a good 20 years (with servicing).

Now, given that I don't earn a staggering amount, the sort of quality of hifi I'm looking at is probably going to take an appreciable proportion of a year's salary for such an item. As such, I'm rather keen to make sure I've not missed an option that I really should have listened to. In addition, the mix and match nature of hifi makes this seem like a particularly daunting process, and I'm aware that the sheere logistics of the situation means that I cannot cover all options. What I'm hoping is that if I list the things I've listened to so far, that you learned people can perhaps point out a couple of products that I really should check out, and possibly point out some that really won't be suitable.

Like:
Quad CDP2 + 909 + Quad ESL 2805
Naim CD5x + 200 + 202 + Wilson Benesch ARC
Electrocompaniet EMC1 UP + EC 4.7 + Nemos + KEF Muons (yes, miles out of budget)
Pathos Digit + Logos + Kef Reference 205s (beautifully rich sound without too much lack of punch)

Dislike:
Krell (listenened to several amps, all were rather soulless)
Neat Motive 1&2 (very whoolly sounding)
AE speakers generally
Totem Model1 Sig & Hawk(Very impressive for size, but overly aggressive for my liking, the Hawk in particular was way too bass heavy)
Leema Xone - Way to thin in the presentation, despite fiddling about with positioning.

Middling:
Leema Acoustics Antilla and Tucana - Was powering the Totem M1 Sigs, so difficult to distinguish between their presentation and the Totems
Bel Canto CD2 + PRE3vb + M300s - Again, only powering the two Totems. Seemed a touch bright.

In paricular, I love the presentation and detail of the Quad electrostatics and the very rich tones of the Pathos / KEF setup. I've listened to the Quads powered by the Unison Research Primo CD and the entry Krell integrated. The Primo might have been ok, but all the life got sucked out by the Krell amp, which made it difficult to tell.

I'm looking at something around the 10k mark for a complete setup, but if that's somewhat flexible.

 

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

10K can get you some nice kit.

I'm assuming that the stuff you have listed & heard was done at dealers because the can change when you get the kit into your home.

A few questions, how big is your room? and how is it furnished? If you a considering The Quads, I assume you have the space for them.

What dealers have you used? A good dealer will be able to loan kit and may have 2nd hand/ex-dem items that may suit. You should try at home before you buy if you can.

What you could do is have decent shop & home dem of the Quad system it will give you a point of reference. That way you will know some of the strengths and weaknesses.

SCIDB

 

The room I've got is at the smaller end of what the Quads will go into, but when I first heard them they were in a similar sized room. The issue is that there isn't anyone terribly close to where I live that stocks Quad kit (that I can find anyway).

Part of my challenge is that I'd rather buy each component as and when I can afford it. However, I suspect that unless I replace in the order of CD, amp, speakers then I'm going to get some rather odd results, especially if I go with speakers first. The corollary to that being that speakers are the things most in need of home listening, but in particular they do dictate somewhat on the choice of amp used.

All the listening I've done has been at dealers so far, no one else I know has anything particularly high end.

Room size is about 3m x 4m off the top of my head (will measure when I get home), but speakers will probably have to sit on the 4m wall firing across the 3m length. It's effectively the dining room (table at one side during listening) with usual fittings, sideboard and fishtank.

 

Hi,

Where are you in the UK?

SCIDB

 

Exeter. I've got Gulliford HiFi and Audio Destination in Tiverton. For Quad stuff it's mostly been at Acton Gate Audio in Wrexham, plus a spot in London when I've been visiting.

 

Hi The Cherub

You do rather remind 'me of me' - back in my early twenties about a decade ago. I saved and saved to get brand new hifi of a particular brand - I refused to believe that used equipment could match the best on offer new in the shops today.

I drew mental parallels with digital Camera equipment, where new models clearly outstrip older digital models in terms of performance.

Years later I smile back, and know how very wrong I got it!.. The pleasure from owning spanking new kit was sadly diminished by the harsh depreciation (about 40-50%) I got immediately, and worsened still further by hearing other forum members kit that had been bought used for a fraction of what I had spent, and yet achieved greater results.

A few years older, I've done some travelling now and seen quite a bit of the world. I wish I'd spent that early money on a few plane tickets to Vietnam, Laos, China or South America. I could have had all the hifi equipment I wanted for just a couple of thousand pounds.

Today, I've gone one step further and I normally will make a kit up, a scratch build, or buy something with a lot of promise and get the soldering iron out.

There isn't much out there that can't be equalled for a fraction of the cost of new equipment.

Remember too - buying second hand - you can usually recoup all of your money, or worst case nearly all by stuffing it back on Ebay, or wherever you found the item in the first place.

Older Quad electrostatics frequently pop up used, as do many of the items on your list.

I'm sure RIchard Dunn here on this forum (has been making/selling hifi for many years will tell you, the designs he will do today are largely similar to the ones being made years ago.

The quad electrostatic panel was invented I believe in the 1950's, to gain some perspective on all this.

One last and final point.

I remember falling head over heels for a pair of Living Voice Avatar speakers at one point. I saved up , spent thousands (oh woe is me!) and finally got them home. Sadly, they sounded completely different to the way they did in the shop. This unfortunately is a common occurance - a store demo room is in many cases designed to sound good from the ground up, whereas a living room is a room which just has a hifi placed into it.

The Avatars went after about a year, and of course I lost a lot of cash.

I have no resentment, they are good speakers and I learned a lot from the experience.

Hope all of this helps you.

Cheers.

 

What does a retailer do - well mainly he buys equipment for about half the price he sells it to you for, and he sell what he wants to sell not necessarily what you want to buy.

 

we know it should not be that way but it happens, not all do that, further to dealers profit marging is more complicated than profit, rent of premesis, staff wages, buying goods to have on dem, various different ones, how can they exist if they do not offer the "so called client with that service without investing on stock? only for clients to use their services and then search for cheaper outlets to buy what they made their minds to buy, with a good after sales service they may require?
someone please tell me how and pro's ancon' of both methods- direct to clint or via dealler,!!!

 

I've no issues at all with buying second hand / ex-demo etc. It's nice to buy from a dealer when you can get a decent warranty, but it's by no means an essential for me.

The trouble I have with asking for a home demo is that to listen to any speakers at home will require a dealer to bring the whole setup, as anything at the kind of quality I want is going to sound like a dogs breakfast off the back of my current electronics. Coupled with this is that the speakers are probably going to be last on the list, so any trial now is most definitely a 'long term investment' on the part of the dealer.

As for building kit, it's a way outside my sphere of knowledge, and I really wouldn't know where to start.

 

i think from experience spkrs last the longests in anyones system, they will get a bug to change electronics but almost always keep their spkrs, may i sugest to try to find out your most likeable spkrs of your choice and home dem different amps and cdp's, ?

 

That certainly makes sense, even if it means listening to them off the back of my rather rubbish amp for a short while (might even act as an incentive to hurry up with the saving).

 

+1 for the 'go used' ethos . . . although not everything is such a smart buy second hand. D-A converters just keep getting better and better, and in tandem with a computer will give you much better performance than a CD player for the same money. Plus, of course, a PC is versatile.

You can snag bargains by taking advantage of wealthy people fallen on hard times (so much more ethical than buying from a retailer!): high end speakers in particular are undervalued on eBay, and are at least run in: who wants to spend 300 hours thrashing drivers before auditioning them? I'd start there.

Also lots of classy amplification in your budget. But definitely junk the disc spinner.

Here's a plan: grab a pair of Yamaha NS1000M for about £700: very tough to better under £4K, and will easily live with exotic partners. Swap the bass driver for a Eminence Pro 12 inch. Do digital properly with a dedicated audio PC (£1000) + maybe an Antelope Zodiak + or Prism Orpheus DAC at £2-3.5K. No preamp required. Then go shopping for monoblocks and a single analog interconnect with £4K in your pocket, leaving around £1K for a dedicated mains spur and room treatments. Job's a good 'un.

 

?????????????? why yamahas, i think he is looking for his first serious hi-fi? i do not think that pc's fit that category , you might as well say buy an ipod docking station , IMO.

 

I agree 100% with bottleneck.

In addition to that I've had a couple of NAD amps (C340 and C370) and they are not as low-fi as you may think. Why not upgrade step by step and enjoy the journey? I suspect your CD player may be the weak link. Why not upgrade it with a DAC? You could then experiment with computer audio also. Then I'd look at the speakers and so on and so on and ... er on.

What's your Hi-Fi fund now?

 

You only need spend a fraction of that to get a PC which 'Does digital properly'

 

wow, it's nice to get such positive comments.

The Kef reference you mention (and for the life of me, I dont know why..) is a model that has skipped under my radar a couple of times.

As hubsand mentioned, speakers a few years old go for a fraction of their cost on Ebay. These Kef reference speakers are an example - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KEF-Reference...ioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers

Some of the new quad 2905's on Ebay - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Quad-Referenc...ioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers

...but see how much cheaper the older 989s are going for in comparison - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOOK-QUAD-989...ioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers


These items havent sold yet, so we cant pay too much heed by their current prices.


These will go for about 3-3.5k I'd guesstimate, but could be the last speakers you ever need... (even if that's because you get a hernia picking them up)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TANNOY-GRF-CO...ioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers



Lastly, the speakers you've mentioned are all pretty big, I am guessing you have a good sized room?

I would like to re-emphasize one point I made.

Let's say you spend £600 on some quad ESL 57's as an example. You drive a couple of hours to get them, set them up, like them, but decide they're not quite right for you. Bung them back on ebay and get your £600 back. This effort is worth it for the money you will save.

Enjoy

 

The warranty is provided by the manufacturer, all the retailer does is act as his agent.

 

who does the after sales service to the customer ? the manufacturer,? i don't think so he should be busy manufacturing and repairing, or can it do all 10 steps itself!

 

I dont want to criticise manufacturers or sales side of hifi.

If we didn't have both, the used equipment I choose to buy would not be available to me to buy in the first place. They are both essential.

Not everybody chooses second hand, not everybody would prefer to buy internet-direct.

Sometimes we all want to buy new.. and the option is there for anyone.

 

New direct or new through a retailer, as one is twice the price of the other. Even 5 years ago no one went direct, unless as Nando says to stitch up their retailers. It is only now you find some manufacturers wanting to go direct and not supply any retailers like Zu and NVA.