questions from and advice for newbies

Hi all, newbie Bry here.

So, I thought I'd start a thread where all of you seeming experts and salty veterans of the hifi world could share your advice for the newbies like me.

As I mentioned in the introductions thread, I'm a newbie to the hifi world. I would like to put together a good kit with a lot of potential to grow and expand with my financial possibilities , but I'm starting from scratch. It is clear from reading some of the interesting posts in this forum that hifi is not just a matter of looking at what each component can do on paper and just mixing and matching pieces. And that's assuming you know how to interpret all that data you see on the paper. All this is especially complicated if you don't have a friendly and patient salesman in a hifi store nearby who's willing to go through all the possible combinations of equipment time and time again until you find that sweet combination that might possibly on some level make this (for some) insane investment of time and money rewarding and worthwhile.

For example, I think I would be most pleased with a system that reproduced faithfully and neutrally the information that is found in the source recording. Tenson mentioned quickly that I should seriously consider active speakers for various reasons, including value, matching issues, and higher accuracy of playback. I confess, the idea of active speakers is totally foreign to me, I never would have considered that option. No particular reason, only that it doesn't fit into my prejudices when I think of stereo systems. Now, I'll have to think about it. What is the difference between active and passive? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

So, that is the type of issue I was thinking about. If any others want to share your golden nuggets of how to arrive at a good system, or sometimes overlooked alternatives that could have good results, or pitfalls that should at all costs be avoided, please, I would be grateful.

Another example: I had no idea how important the wires used to connect the components could be. So I wonder, what else am I missing?

Perhaps we could go through the system bit by bit and develop a sortof manifesto on considerations for building the perfect beast.

As I understand so far, then...

in a typical system, there are several possible sources for reproducing music, including but not limited to tuners (if separate from the integrated amp), cdp (which I assume is a cd player), and turntables.

The tuner seems pretty straight forward. It's plugged into the mains, and connected directly to the preamp or integrated amp. Anything I'm missing? Is there an important difference between digital and analogue with tuners? Can anyone recommend DAB? I like to listen to the radio, so this may be important.

The CDP also is plugged to the mains and connected to the preamp or integrated. Again, I have seen some cdps that have both digital and analogic outs. what's that for? And still other cdps are divided into two distinct components which seem to be the player itself and something called a transporter (if I'm not mistaken). What's that?

Turntables too are a world unto themselves, probably moreso. Apparently, there are two types, magnetic and belt driven? These are frequently connected through a special sort of phono stage which is designed to transform the signal, mostly to increase the bass readings. This phono stage may or may not be already included in the pre-amp or integrated. Anything important details or I'm missing?

From there, apparently, there are two important options. One, as Tenson suggested, was connecting directly from a pre-amp to active speakers, an option I'd like to know more about. Two, if it isn't an integrated amplifier, is to connect to a power amp or two or four, or what have you. Then connect from the amp, whether power or integrated, to the speakers. With independent power amps, there is more flexibility in how you want to connect to the (passive) speakers.

Of course, the wires that connect the components and the amp to the speakers are tremendously important. I've seen some references to power conditioning, for example, but I don't have a clue what that might refer to.

Okay, so, what am I missing?

oof, another long winded post. I'd appreciate any feedback on any of these questions or aspects of building a good stereo system.

 

If you want an upgradeable system, I wouldn't consider active speakers. There are many ways to skin a cat, for a newbie I don't think it's the best. You're effectively stuck with an amp speaker combination, so if you want better speakers, you have to change the amps as well. They nearly always look butt ugly. Most of the reasonable priced ones are studio monitors first and foremost. I've always found that they are designed for 'hearability' rather than long term listening. By that I mean they are designed for a recording engineer to mix to and spot problems rather than provide musical entertainment. Hi-fi always involves compromise. Me I like low powered valves and big very efficient horn loaded speakers. I'm sure Tensen prefers something else. I want a sense of scale and realism, others will want something more orientated to 3D soundstaging.

In your position I would decide what sort of sound you want first. Try some speakers out to see what you like. Do you have room for big ones, or do you really need small standmounts that can go near the wall?

Then try some combinations of speakers, sources and amps until you hear some things you like. It all depends how much you spend. There are some good dealers out there who stock interesting kit, not just Sevenoiks. There's Audioworks in Manchester, Coherent Systems in the posh bit of the Midlands, and loads of shops in the South, Sounds of Music, Warlus, Cornflake. Go and listen, they won't shoot you if you don't buy anything first time. Have a look at what they have second hand as well.

Above all it's supposed to be an enjoyable process, you should be able to try things out and get pleasure out of something. Being nearly right won't be good enough.

All of those dealers will help you find out whether changing wires works for you. I think they do make a difference, plenty of others don't!

 

Bry

I would echo Lordsummits thoughts but add that you will find lots of guys on this and other forums who will willingly let you hear their systems. If you can get to hear a few set ups then you may find you prefer vinyl to cd, or valve to Solid State or even Set valve to Push Pull. This really is an enjoyable experiance, and you get a few new aquaintances to boot.

 

I f I have read correctly (in your welcome post) at the moment your source material is predominantly radio, so I will share my thoughts in that area only.

You mention DAB - does that mean you have digital broadcasting in Spain? if so try to find out how good it is. DAB promises much and (at least here in UK) is often compromised by the 'bit rate' at which the broadcasters transmit the material. They compress it to use less bandwidth. Sure, FM is a compromise but good old fashioned live broadcast (Proms for example) on BBC Radio 3 was about as good as it gets. I haven't done A/B comparisons but I believe the same thing on DAB is not as good - so check the bit rate your local services are broadcast in before you choose between DAB and FM. As well as connecting the tuner to the rest of the system don't forget a good aerial.

You may choose to check out Internet radio. It suffers bandwidth compromises just like DAB but since your reading this you already have a pc with internet connection!

The means of getting the music out of the pc is a whole 'nother area, so if the local broadcast content is good a decent secondhand tuner will pull in loads of free stuff. Hundreds of them on ebay.

For general reading remember Google and Wikipedia will bring you more info than you can possibly absorb! Also visit

http://www.tnt-audio.com/int.html

for tons of reveiws, advice, diy and stuff.

Enjoy the journey.

Jim

 

I think you're in danger of over-confusing yourself.

You say you want something not too expensive that you can upgrade in the future.


My advice is simple - buy popular well-known brands, and buy them second hand.


Give yourself the opportunity to sell things on again without a loss, or not much of one.




Second thing I'd say is buy as few bits as you can get away with - it will increase the quality of each. For example - decide which ''source'' you want the most, and leave the rest until a later date - the more you divide up the sum of money you have the worse the quality gets.


Lastly, check out an old thread we did about a year ago .. search for ''the best system you can get for £500'' - there was loads of people putting idea of starter systems (many using second hand goods).



I think if you get too hooked up on passive vs active, DAB vs analoge tuners (etc!!) - you will more and more loose the plot - which is the stated aim of getting a starter system that you can upgrade in the future.

 

good stuff, thanks folks.

Listening to the equipment of others is a bit tricky because I live in Madrid, and I don't know anyone who is evenly remotely interested in hifi here. But I'll keep my eyes open, and try to get to know the guys down at the local shops.

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to spring for a decent piece that I have a good idea i'll like, then build around it. The idea of piecing together an entire system all at once that sounds just right, without having something to start to work around is daunting. Too many variables. If I have at least one known to start with, it might be easier to start identifying good unknowns.

Where to start? pre/power amps? speakers? cdp?
Or maybe I should just get one of everything (with respected names) as cheaply as possible from ebay and start trying to identify the weakest links.

Anyway, good advice so far, and food for thought. Thanks!

 

Active Speakers:

Lordsumet, the reasons I mentioned active is because the budget is only 1500 euro. The value for money in active speakers in this price range is silly IMO.

Bry,

First the disadvantages of active - Kinda ugly. You can't change the amps and speakers separately. Some don't like accuracy to the recording.

Advantages - Better value. You don't need to change the amps because they are made specifically for that speaker and work perfectly with it. The crossovers are active (more accurate and operate the drivers in a more suitable range). You get bi-amping (a separate amplifier dedicated to every drive unit in the speaker). Neater solution that takes less space (e.g. you could run a cd player that has volume control built in directly to the speakers and thats your system.)

Wires:

As for wires making a big difference, IMO they don't. Not at all. Use the cheapest / most convenient you can get.

CD Players:

Ahh now the two box CD player uses a disc reader called a transport. This only reads the digital data off the CD. You then add a ‘DAC’ (digital to analogue converter) which takes that digital data and converts it to an analogue music signal.

Advantages of this are that you can use the DAC for not just CD, but use it with your computer, TV cable box, mini-disc or whatever you want, giving good sound from any digital source.

You also get the choice to spend most of the money on the DAC and use something simple to read the data off the disc like a £30 DVD player. The transport does make a difference, but IME you can get some great results with a good DAC and a cheap player as transport. You can then upgrade the transport later for that last bit of quality.

Also have a look at the ‘DEQ2496’ link in my signature. This is a good example of why separating the transport and DAC is good. This little box is not just a DAC but can also measure your room and how it effects the sound and then add compensation to the signal. This is called digital room correction and makes a huge difference. It is a bit complex for a beginner though I would think.

 

there you go.

that's the solution right there.


get speakers big enough to drive the room, and an amp capable of driving the speakers. and a source.

spend more on the amp and speakers is my advice than the cd player (if that is your source). Difference between a 300 Euro CDP and a 500 Euro CDP is often insignificant IMO... less so with amps and speakers.

not to say don't get active, but why not look out for them second hand too.

 

Tenson, there's more than one kind of accuracy. I'd wager mine or Andy's speakers with big drive units would give more scale and realism than any small studio monitor. It's horses for courses.
With the sort of money we're talking, I'd suggest something very simple. An amp, some speakers, a CD player and a cheap tuner would be a good start. Some cheap wires and bobs your uncle.

 

Bry - as a relative newbie myself to this arena I can tell you some of the mistakes I made:

1) Bought new from Sevenoaks - much better value second hand or ex-dem. Some dealers even include warranty's with this stuff if that's what you are worried about. Also, go to a delaer with a bit of skin in the game not just a countrywide franchise.

2) Always listen to the equipment (in your home if possible but at least listen somewhere) - at the lower price range you may be tempted to just buy whats recommended or has five stars etc - don't do this as kit can sound different when partnered differently and in different rooms.n I bought some new stuff that had good reviews but sounded fairly mediocre in my home. Part of this I now realise was also down to positioning of speakers.

3) Go to a show and talk to people - amazing how many hi-fi enthusiats are willing to lend a hand/let you listen to their gear. I know you are based in Madrid but there's a good show on near Heathrow this weekend - also gives you an idea of what is available as invaribly dealers can only stock limited amounts.

4) Take your time - you have coped with your old system for so long so no need to rush into anything

5) you talk about turntable vs tuner vs Cdp - do you have any LPs? CDs? etc - youneed to decide what media you prefer/would like to start collecting. Of course radio doesn't involve media but there are sound quality issues not to mention lack of ability to play a track when you want to listen to it etc. Decide of one source to start with as others have pointed out - this I actually did okay on only getting a CDP.

Have fun

 

I think an 8" drive unit is big enough for decent scale and realism in most rooms. Especially with the amp connected directly to the driver giving a vice-like grip. Bry did ask for accuracy to the recording, not 'I want it to sound real', so subjectivism doesn't have to come in to this one which is nice

If you went second hand you could get a pair of HHB Circle 5A's which have a more laid back 'acceptable' English sound than many other studio monitors.

You can not upgrade so easily I admit, but IMO a good active set-up in that budget would be so far ahead of what you would get buying separate passive gear you would not need to upgrade for a very long time and the fact it reduces the box count is nice too.

 

Bry

Your head must be spinning...........loads of advice........and a lot of it coming from slightly different angles.....thats hifi.

my thoughts...

1) where ever you are coming from from the ££ popint of view, don't underestimate the value of corectly setting up you kit

eg setting up speakers

2) you mentioned cables........they DO make a difference for me....not every one will agree.

have a word with zanash for value for money/quality cables. He operates on a try before you buy policy.

3) shop auditioning doesn't work for me. In the last year or so I have changed my kit around by having a punt on stuff and trying it for a bit....then swapping around. Half an hour to an hour in a shop is not sufficient to let you get to know stuff and whether you're going to like it on a long term basis.

4) I think you mentoined "the perfect system".

I don't beleive there is one.

The fun for me is tweaking stuff to get it to sound a bit different( you hope a bit better)....playing witht he laws of physics.


as i say, correct set up of a system can make a night/day difference to the sound

Hope that helps......let us know how you get on!





David

 

accuracy itself is subjective with hi-fi, it's just a different set of compromises, which do you think is most real. 8 inches does not do scale like 12 or 15 inches. Just for once I am convinced that biggest is best.

As you know I completely disagree, and I actively dislike most studio monitors I've heard. That's just a matter of taste. On the other hand, I do like the BBC monitors, and thinking about it, a pair of Harbeths, a nice amp, CD player and Tuner could probably be had for about 1500 euros

 

Actually, Spain has one of the best online s/h resources I know - it's called Ruiz Audio Pages. It's a kind of audio guide mostly to tubes and similar but it has classifieds page that always has something interesting on offer.

http://audio-nirvana.fortunecity.net/pag_eng/frames_eng.htm

From what I can see now, I would immediatelly take these:

26/03/2007-For sale Sugden A21a line amplifier. Very good. One owner. 700 €. Contact [email protected].
(bargain hard, start from 550E, take it for 600E)

26/03/2007-For sale Jean Marie Reynaud Trenté speakers (30th anniversary special edition) + Jean Marie Reynaud "Magic Stand". New 2494,20 €, now 990 €. See info at http://www.jm-reynaud.com/archives/presse.php?select=13. Contact [email protected].

(if you can stretch a budget, buy them for 800-900E)

alternatively, you can have these (although I wouldn't look after JM reynauds):

Proac Response One SC speakers. 2005. Invoice. Great for tubes. Used at low volumes with tube amplification. Retail 2340€. Can send pics. Mint. 990 €. Contact [email protected].


so with these 2 you are at 1500E.

now, just buy ANY CD player and get ANY cables to connect the system and start listening. when i say ANY CD player i really mean ANY, it could 20E DVD player from a supermarket or anything you'll grab for a few euros at your lovely el rastro flea market.

then, keep on saving money for a better CDP and better cables and upgrade as soon as funds allow!


alternatively, go for cheaper JM reynauld's, also a great choice
21/03/2007-For sale J.M. REYNAUD Twin Signature speakers. NIB. 5 years warranty. Boxed. Free new Atacama stands includedc. Can send pics. 600 €. Contact [email protected]

bargain them to 500E and you have 400E for CDP and cables:

speaker cables (take only 2x2,5):
Van den Hul The Revolution speaker cable (4 x 2,5 m).
Excellent and boxed. Contact [email protected].
or
Van del Hul Magnum Hybrid speaker cable. 3 m. 125 €.
Contact [email protected].
or
Kimber Kable 4TC speaker cable. 2 x 1,80 metros, bananas. 90€. Contact [email protected].


ICs:
For sale Van Den Hul- THE WELL HYBRID. 2 x 60 cm. Mint. RCA. 30 €. Can send pics. See info at: http://www.vandenhul.com/cable/well-h.htm. Contact [email protected].



CDP:
the best bang for buck you'll get from a good old model such as:

ROTEL RCD-965BX LIMITED EDITION CD player. Excellent. Box, manuals. 200 €.
Contact [email protected].
this rotel CDP is a classic, plenty of PRaT and very fine tone, to beat it you'll need to pay more. but try to bargain hard for it - 120-150E max is what you should pay. you may need to service it soon, that's the bargaining point.

i wouldn't look elsewhere, these is all very decent stuff and actually far beyond a beginner's system.

sugden amp plus JM raynaud trente on magic stands plus rotel CDP plus VDH cables. this will sound rich and musical for sure! my first system was definitely much worse (not sure that the actual one is much better sounding)

 

Very good advice anubisgrau.

 

alternatively there are some cheaper sonus faber speakers on sale at the same classifieds, 500-800E, they can possibly sound sweet with sugden class A amp. for my taste they are a bit too much (mind I have diabetes, sugar forbidden) but some like it like that!
just bear in mind if you go for sugden that you need an efficient speaker - JM reynauds are actually not so, but they are known as an easy load so 25W of sugden's would be fine for a reasonably sized room. some sonus fabers are notoriously lazy and some are just fine - the best you can do is to bring your amp and check if they can work or not.

last but not least, if the sellers of the amp and the boxes are in madrid, just go there and listen carefully. what you hear is most likely some approximation of what they can do the best (most of the sellers do take care to present their stuff in the best possible way). if you like it, take it. if you just don't like the sound there, the chances are not too big that you (as a beginner) would be able to get impressed when you take them home.

now seriously - both sugden and jm reynaud won't give you a headache! bite a bullet and buy that - wish i had such a good choice when i was buying stuff.

 

Can't go far wrong with the Sugden A21a integrated, great suggestion; there are three bits of hifi that I really regret having sold, and my Sugden A21a is one of them.

 

if you don't want the mentioned JMR speakers, a relatively cheap, underrated and overlooked brand for speakers is Quad with its L series, 11,12,21,22. all of them are very good, actually fantastic value for money and whatever you take will serve you nice.

quad, being now owned by chinese is seen by some as a traitor of the UK hi-fi pride whatever this is, but all of their speakers now benefit strongly from being designed by british engineers and produced in china - simply put they sound good and don't cost much, especially secondhand when all the prejudices about company's new identity help keeping prices stupidly low.

for 22L you surely need a bigger room and clear space around them as they can boom because of 2 woofers and a port. they are a good choice if you like plenty of bass and still very precise mids and highs. my choice would be either 12 or 21, they are the same speaker, just that 12 needs stands and 21 is a floorstander. s/h they should be not more than 350-450E. both are analytical and musical at the same time - i found them pretty close to the current spendor house sound.

they represent excellent value, not only for a beginner, and work excellent with exposure, sugden and a number of other amps with a good, clean current - not necessary very powerful.

 

some good suggestions there. Thanks

 

After years of trial and error.... I think I have come to accept the best option is really get a pair of active speakers suitable for your room volume. Good if you could affort one that have adaptable room EQ correction and ability to expand to 5.1 or 7.1 sound. Choose a nice looking digital player like a £200 DVDP, PS3 or a laptop. Then spend the rest of your time exploring music and only tweak anything that really improve your room acoustic.