That was the point I tried (and failed) to make if we say they made a difference then we are giving an honest view that may help somone try it for themselves, if they don't then hear the same then fine nothing lost, If you want to enter the discussion and say they haven't worked for you, thats fine too as it gives abalanced view, what i object to is those non beleivers who pour scorn and ridicule and theen try and disprove our observations with facts and figures, WHY? FWIW all of the posters in this thread are not the type of non beleivers i was refering to.

I don't want a believers forum I want a well balanced forum thats fun to be part of and there is nothing wrong with a bit of leg pulling, but attacks on peoples beleifs and integrity can only lead to pointless arguments.