[Review] Lyndorf TDA2200 & CD-1

Maybe you should decide that it's disappointing that you can't get anything better out of it no matter what output and cable you use, so you should sell it to me for a good price Seriously, glad to hear you still rate it and find it insensitive to the usual irritating details.

 

I only just got it, and it's brilliant,so no chance! The whole point of digital is that it should be insensitive to the things which affect analog (reactance, resistance, skin effect, and all kinds of electronic shortcomings), although it has its own problems, as I am sure you know, but cables should not be one of them.

Analog is really sensitive to cable technology, I know, and there are good technical reasons for this. Someone then thought that must be the same for digital and mains cables, but it isn't, so save your money, and start saving it for a TDA2200!

It really irritates me when I see in hi fi magazines descriptions of mains cables (e.g. 'tight bass, smooth treble, holographic imaging', etc., etc) which should be reserved for describing the highest of high end equipment. Based on this, the gullible must spend a fortune on stuff they don't need, and which they would better spend improving source, amplification, and speakers, which make far more difference than any cable.

 

Digital cables do make marked differences with the TDA2200 in my ears. Also do mains cables make major difference in performance. But I have heard most profound improvements with mains filtering with the Lyngdorf equipment.

 

If digital cables really do make a diiference, why would changing the cables on the computer I am writing this on not change what I see on screen?

OK, I know about jitter, but a properly designed cable and interface should not change this - what are the mechanisms by which such changes happen if they do?

Just conceivably the data transfer over the cable may be subject to errors or digital noise being introduced, but if so, the audible result would be random and different all the time. I don't hear any difference, and until someone explains why there should be, digital cables go in the snake oil category for me.

I do see the value of mains filtering in theory, and have such a filter fitted as well as decent quality cables, but the audible effect of these, if I can hear it all, is very subtle - moving the speakers, or my even my head, a centimetre makes more difference.

I also accept that cables carrying analog signals can affect these due to the electrical properties of the cable having a known and understood influence on the signal. I can hear these differences.

Finally the amount of design effort and expertise which goes into these kind of digital products is immense. If the results of that work were to be spoiled/significantly improved by the cables used, then I think the designers would want to include the optimum cables as part of the product.

The fact that they do not says to me that those who really understand the technology here know that tweaks in this area are of little significance.

 

People listen differently. What is very obvious to the one, is undiscernable to another. To me, digital and analog interconnects can make small, but significant differences, power cables can make pretty impressive differences and mains filtering can make profound differences. It's only how much of a difference is a large difference for you.

Do remember that digital is not really digital at all with S/PDIF. It is an analog representation of a digital signal, with timing information carried in it. As long as we have this crappy interface and bad PLL circuits, differences wil exist. They would not exist with better implemented digital interfaces.

Do you listen to the music or the sound? In the latter case, it is much harder to hear real differences. Do I care to have a technical implementation to why and how these difference occur? No.

 

As a musician I listen to the music, and as a qualified electronics engineer and hi fi enthusiast I listen to the sound. On both counts I do not hear significant differences due to cables. I hear huge differences between different equipment, so my ears are capable of hearing differences.

You are right in saying people listen in different ways. I think some take input from their ears, PLUS input from their brains about other things which they THINK will affect the sound, and come to a conclusion that those other things are affecting it. I don't doubt people's sincerity when they claim to perceive (a better word than 'hear' in this context, I suggest) differences due to all kinds of tweaks external to the actual equipment. In a few situations, some real effects may be going on, but often the perceived differences are psychological in origin, I believe. Neveretheless, the tweaks are worth doiing if the psyche has to be satisfied.

 

I borrowed a CD-1 for the weekend, as my old Marantz CD63SE is a bit low-fi for my system, which is:
Lexicon MC12B
Chord SPM4000 L/R
Chord SPM3005 Surround
PMC IB1 front speakers
Kef Ref. 4.2 rears
Kef 202c centre
Sides - ahem..Sony
Sub. Velodyne DD18
DVD - Pioneer 868i
Plasma - Pioneer PDP-504HDE
6 Satellite receivers
4 VCR's
CD's sound a bit harsh at the top end, so I'm trying to sweeten things up, starting with the CD-1, but that didn't fix it much. Next plan is to integrate a TDA2200 somehow with the Lex. and Bi-Amp, using the Chord for LF's, as it's great for bass, and the 2200 for mid/highs. Room Perfect should help.

 

I need an amplifier with one RCA + one Toslink digital inputs, bass management with low level output to subwoofer, to be able to change xover would be nice to have, and of course 2 channels of power, does the TDA2200 do it all...

What is the price without not need extras...

 

The TDA2200 will do this, without any extras unless you want analogue inputs or room correction (Room Perfect Module). The crossover function in the TDA2200 is for 2-way speakers only. Be aware that to use the TDA for active crossovers, you need a second power amplifier as well, eg the SDA2175, which can be controlled from the TDA2200 using a data link. Have a read of the specs at www.lyngdorf.com

As far as I recall, the TDA2200 retails for a bit over £2000 in the UK, but you'd have to speak to a dealer to confirm that. Your nearest dealer chain would be www.hifiklubben.com

I hope this helps

 

Thanks, the subwoofer is active...

 

I think mostly the combination of Chord with your fronts is responsible for the harsh sound. I am using Chord+Lexicon on MartinLogan and don't get a harsh sound at all, but I have heard some combinations with Chord that can get harsh (I know the PMC's are not really sweet sounding speakers).

Try a CEC transport with AES/EBU output with your Lexicon. A very good match!

What cables do you use? They could really enhance the brightness as well.

 

I have heard the WB Arcs and liked them in an Audio Research/krell set-up. I don't have the opportunity to trial them with the Lyngdorf CD1/TDA2200 set-up I have, and would value your view on how well the Arcs suit this, as you appear to have tried this combination. Any other similarly priced speakers you would recommend for use with the Lyngdorf kit?

Thanks

 

Hi Unitygain,

I think the WB Arcs are great speakers, but they were a bit 'gray' sounding with the Lyngdorf stuff. Too 'bleached'. The Arcs sound great with NAIM amplifiers in my opinion. AR would also be great (as you might have heard). I drove the Arcs with a Lavardin IT, which was 'o.k.', but somehow they never really gelled together that well.

I have had best results with Lyngdorf in BIG full-range systems, like Von Schweikert VR4 and Thiel CS2.4/3.6. These speakers really show off the power and control of these amps. They also worked well with Paradigm Studio 60 and Dali Ikon 6.

In fact, they work with most speakers that have a fuller sound. They will not cover up for harsh tweeters.

 

Thanks for your advice here, which is very helpful. The weakness of the Rogers LS7 speakers I am using with Lyngdorf is in the treble, which can sound harsh on some recordings, especially if played loud, as I like to. As you say, the TDA 2200 will not cover up tweeter weaknesses.

I have heard the Arcs with other amplification, and agree that they can sound a bit dull. The last time I heard them was up against Audiovector Mi 1 Avantgarde speakers, which sounded a lot better - much fuller sounding and very smooth treble (the Audiovectors have a unique ribbon tweeter). I suspect these speakers, and Dalis which also use ribbon tweeters, would be the ones to try with the TDA 2200, and I plan now to listen to some Dalis.

 

Bought a TDA2200+ with Room Correction, which managed to kill the bass completely somehow, so had RC removed. And yes, of course it was set up properly by the dealer, not me. Anyway, as yet, I don't hear any improvement with the TDA over my Lexicon MC12B as a Pre-Amp, maybe it needs to run in. As for integration, I've ended up with the TDA and Lex in series, as DVD DD/DTS has to be decoded in the Lex. then off to the TDA then the Chord SPM4000 for L/R. Surround channels x5 hang off the Lex direct to the Chord SPM3005. Trying it the the other way round, the digital output from the TDA does not work into the Lex. which sees a 96Khz clock, but no sound. 96Khz from the CD1 works fine into the Lex OK. I like the CD player, but not sure about the TDA, so now I'm thinking McIntosh C2200 (strange that, same number) or new C220, to give a warmer sound for front L/F channels. It would integrate with Lex. with the MAC in bypass mode for HC and the Lex L/R running thru it, and the CD player just via the MAC for 2 channel music. Anyone listened to the MAC Pre-Amps ?

 

Sht... I never thought of that, glad I didnt go that route, happy with my Unidisk SC player/processor + power, that is integration...

 

McIntosh C220 Pre-Amp coming up

 

Back to the Lyngdorf, usually you can set the output of DVD players to PCM and use the amplifiers DACs, even for DD and DTS discs...

Congratulations for the McIntosh, it is a serious cool machine... Do you like the numbers 220...

 

Now let me C

 

Lyngdorf and bi-amping

I've been running a TDA 2200+ for a few months now and it certainly improves with age ! Currently driving a pair of Martin Logan Prodigies with plenty of headroom to spear and uncanny detail and depth. I tried the CD1 but wasn't overly impressed. Then again it was on dealer demo for just a few days so perhaps it hadn't broken in.

Now looking at developing my stereo on two fronts;

1) getting some PC -based audio. I've heard a lot about the Squeezebox Transporter but this seems to be a waste of cash when the 2200 has its own DAC. Or I could add the ADC Lyngdorf module but that would seem to defeat the point of trying to keep the reproduction chain in the digital domain. Question is therefore - is the Transporter better feeding the 2200 through its digital output and using the 2200's DAC. Or feed the Transporter analogue output to a Lyngdorf ADC module ?

2) Bi-amping the Prodigies. Curious to know whether this may help tighten things up a little (the Prodigies are almost too much of a good thing in limited space). I certainly don't need more volume !
Obvious thoughts lie in the direction of adding a SDA2175. What I would really like to do is then bypass the Prodigy's internal crossover and use the Lyngdorf to control the bandwidth output by each amp (e.g. SDA handles bass frequencies up to, say 250Hz, TDA 2200 looks after the upper frequencies).

Any thoughts, observations ?

Cheers