Rotel and B&W system: It's bright and I have a headache!

Hi,
I don't know if any of you out there have had a problem with the Rotel and B&W combo (it's popular). I have:

Rotel RCD 951
Rotel RA 971 Amplifier
Rotel RT 955
B&W 601 S2

There's things I really like about this system. Great rhythm and timing. Lots of detail. Particualry good with acoustic music. But the problem is, it can be a quite hard and bright and I find myself having to turn it down or off completely at times. This has been the case in rooms of various sizes.

I've been considering getting new speakers for some time because I've had the B&W's for 6 years and I want something with a slightly more expansive bass. Have you any suggestions about what speakers may work well - that may take the edge of the brightness? Price range £400 - £750. Has anybody else had this problem with Rotel?

I listen to Rock (e.g. Muse), melodic percussion music (e.g Afrocelt Soundsystem) and a bit of classical too (e.g. Mahler).

Any advice or reflections on your own experience will be appreciated!
Thanks
Mark

 

I used to have 602, s for a number of years and found them to be bright / harsh in the treble, swapped em for cdm 2 se's and they were a lot better, but i am sure for your budget you can get much much better for the money, dont know much about rotel stuff but the speakers will change the sound as much as anything at this kind of level.

 

Wow, that sounds familiar!

I used to have Rotel RCD-991, RA-971mkII and B&W DM602S1, and I had the exact same issue. So much so, in fact, that when listening to Haydn's Violin Concerto at a concert in birmingham, as the build up to a high note came I found myself reflexively bracing myself for this harsh sound. Of course, a well played Strad is anything but harsh.

I went through various changes, but my speaker choice after the B&Ws was Meadowlark Kestrel Hotrods. These used a Peerless silk-dome tweeter which is very much less inclined to that harsh, glaring top end that the B&Ws exhibit.

The RA971 is very good and will hold its own with much more expensive CD players and speakers. I went to using a SuperDAC on the 991, which I upgraded to a Marantz CD16 shortly afterwards. Eventually I replaced the 971 with a NAD S300, but the 971 came back during a period of trouble with the S300.

I've put the 971 on the end of an audio analyser and it's technically far better than Rotel let on. Distortion tends to be very low across the board (typically 0.00X%) and it's far more powerful than the spec sheet suggests (really it's in excess of 2x100W). I did try using an RB971 power amp in tandem with it at one stage but it was totally pointless.... the RA971 is just the RB971 with an ultra-simple preamp on the front end and with both using this preamp they sounded identical. Since the RA971 by no means lacks for power, bi-amping provided no benefit whatsoever, so I sold the RB971 on at a few quid profit.

So, in summary, stick with the RA971 amp as it's a good one and will be happy with upgrades elsewhere. The Meadowlark Kestrel Hotrods will certainly fulfill your brief of less harsh and more expansive bass (oh yeah!).

 

Thanks Isaac,
Our experience is very similar. I have the RA 971 MkII and sold a RB971 for the same reason as you - it didn't help. I think the Amp is impressive and felt that it was simply not partnered well.

Funnily enough I have been looking at Meadowark speakers during the last hour, before reading your post and was coming to the same conclusion that you have come to. Only, I see the comapny have gone bust. It may not be easy to find a pair - particularly in the UK.

 

There's one marked set for sale in the classifieds, and another pair that might be prised from their owner too...

 

I would say, change the amp! I have heard a fair few Rotel amps and always find them to be lean and bright. And indeed thats what the reviews say about the 971 as well. I particularly remember going to SevenOaks to demo some amps with a friend and I asked to listen on the Monitor Audio GR10's since I knew them to be very good. We started with a Rotel and it just sounded CRAP. REALLY bass light. I asked if the speakers were out of phase or the bass control was down or something.. I mean it just sounded pants. We switched to a Musical Fidelity Xv3 thing and it sounded instantly better. Switching to the Cyrus 6 sounded better again. And the Cyrus amps past the 3 are not exactly warm and cuddly.

My advice is get yourself a Cyrus 3 (not 3i), its a wonderful amp with great pace and timing but also an ever so slightly warm personality At least, try a different amp.

 

Perhaps a valve amp. Not heard one myself but a lot of people say they are warm and cuddly.

 

IMO that would be going too far the other way.

 

Any alternative speaker suggestions that may help here would be much appreciated.
Thanks

 

Tenson is right about the Rotel's bass light nature. However, that can typically be balanced out with speaker positioning (place them slightly closer to the wall). No, it's not ideal... Alternatively you could use the tone control to counteract the bass roll off. However, no amp is ideal, and certainly a fuller range speaker combined with the rotel can provide excellent performance.

 

A "modern" tube amp is not going too far the other way, on the contrary, except for sheer power, they do everything a good transistor amp does, better, and without aggressive mids/highs...

If you like your amplifier, (I dont know how you can say that if you dont like the sound of your system), try speakers with first order crossover, the only I can stand...

 

the solutions depend on how much dosh you want to throw at it ...
low cost solutions are system tuning
high cost solutions include system or component changes
You don't mention what speaker cables are you using, infact no cables are mentioned. You can easily tailor the sound ..if your system as you say is bright to the point of unlistenable ..contact NVA and see if you can get to borrow a set of sound pipe IC's these should tone down the shrillness nicely..for less than £50
If your using any silver plated copper cables within your system you will be making the problem worse.

If you want a system change ...well I'd support the valve option and maybe a better cdp....with speaker changes to follow.

I'd be wary about jumping straight for a new set of speakers as they will only mirror what you have down stream. Not the the 601's arn't forward, they are however a half decent speaker.

 

I would suggest Audiovector speakers; lively without being overbright, plenty of bass but not 'boomy'.

Having said that, buying speakers without hearing them in your own room with your own kit is a mug's game. Been there, done that, etc etc.

 

Not if you buy 2nd hand at sensible prices, if you don't like them you sell them on at the same price.

 

I'd suggest a big fat valve amp too.

Something with 6550/EL84/KT88 should be a cure for a bright sound.

 

Nah; that's far too much like hard work for a lazy-arsed get like me. Buy in haste, repent at leisure is my modus operandum.

 

Thanks for your replies.

I am using GALE biwire cable from Richer Sounds. I know this is lame stuff, and I am keeping an eye on used cables that are being sold on Ebay. I'm a bit wary of expecting too much from cabling. I suspect the differences are very subtle in comparison to other changes (e.g. room, source, speaker etc). I'll be avoiding silver plated copper cables.

I have QED Quinex 2 interconnects. Borrowed some Chord Company ones (forget which now) to see if there was any difference. There was, but it was only subtle (seemed to be me to be very slight increased in detail at some freqeuncies and possibly a little bit smoother. But like I say, subtle).

I do like my system. It does a lot very well. I've had it since 2000 and it was my first hifi system (what a step up it was for me from a portable CD player put through a Panasonic portable tape player!)
It's just that:

a) SOMETIMES it is fatiguing and a bit lean and hard. Brass in particular can give me a headache. I wonder if a change of speakers might give provide a bit more warm, lower end.
b) My tastes in music have changed and I am now listening to more classical music
c) I want a change. To explore! And I have £350-£500 to spend second hand.
d) I want a more expansive sound. The 601's are great, but a bit boxy when its a full orchestra coming through. I'm curious about other possibilities.

I've considered Italian speakers (e.g. Opera), Quad's and Meadowlarks because I hear they are warmer and slightly softer speakers.

 

If you have a system with each component costing a few hundred...

you COULD spend (e.g. £400 on new interconnects and speaker cables)...

or you COULD sell an item (e.g. the amp), and add £400 to a budget of buying a better one second hand.

The 1st one will give you a subtle difference - as you've described, arguably different not better or worse - a well bought super-component will however kick some arse to put it bluntly.

 

It sounds like you are quite keen to change speakers, and I can understand that since it generally gives the biggest improvement / change. But in this case I think you will get more long term satisfaction by getting a better amp. I really would not suggest a valve amp since from my point of view a good transistor amp will do everything a good valve amp does, so why other with the hassle. In fact you could pick up a second hand Cyrus 3 and still have some dosh left to spend on speakers if you want to upgrade more. But I think you will find changing amps the first step in the right direction.

 

OK, I know exactly where you're coming from. Full orchestra's and metal tweeters don't mix. Personally I think the Rotel is a good amp, not a great one, but there's plenty worse. The CD is also a good one. It sounds really good with a PFM flea. Have a look round www.pinkfishmedia.net and you'll find the info on that. It's basically a new powersupply for the clock I think. Whatever it is exactly it works.
Your CD and Amp are both good budget components. You'll have to spend significantly to improve them. Personally I'd have a play with the speakers. Isaac ran the ML's with that amp for a long time, and it did sound good. I ran my ML's with all sorts and they always worked well. I'm only getting rid of them because I found a pair of speakers that were wondefully synergistic with my amp.
As a result I believe that the owner of these might accept a pretty reasonable offer:
https://www.audio-forums.com/as-rediect/showthread.php?t=15933

Just a thought!