Science vs Religion stream of consciousness...

been doing a lot of idle thinking whilst pedaling away the miles lately and had the following thoughts.... and thought i'd inflict them on you lot....

science has replaced religion as the explaination of how the universe works however science seems to fall woefully short on giving people guidelines on how best to get along with one another.
Most religions have rules to live by, for example the old testaments 10 commandments, the new testaments 'love thy neighbor', the wiccan rede, et al. designed to let people live alongside each other and make the best of a potential bad lot. however as far as i can tell science has only 'the survival of the fittests' that is as well known. yes we have 'laws' but the only people who understand them are lawyers and even then they are open to interpretation, contradictory precedent and the liberal aplication of money.
the more i think about 'survival of the fittest' the more the war in afghanistan, iraq, chavs, increasing criminality makes a twisted kind of sense.

now it might seem like i'm about ready to shave my head and join a cult, no, i'd like to think that something of me goes on beyond my death but to be honest if it doesn;t i'm not really going to be in a position to care so i'll wait until it happens and find out. the bowing and scraping to omnipotent myths i can do without so what's left? can science provide rules for living together or is that just wishful thinking and i should, shut up, buy a gun and a bit of land in darkest wales and kill anyone that ****es me off? have we thrown out the baby with the bathwater in our headlong rush to embrace science as the be all and end all or do religions have a place in the world for social guidance but without all the mumbo jumbo? or is the mumbo jumbo to intrinsic to the whole deal? do humans need the threat of eternal damnation in order to be civil to one another? what's the meaning of life?

sorry for the rambling i'll get me coat now....
feel free dis, discuss or delete as you see fit...
cheers


julian

 

I thought there was a court order saying that science had to stay 100 miles away from Religion at all times, or was that a Simpsons Epsiode?

 

I think the cold hard soulless scientific world has forced certain some people back towards religion, in a search for something more meaningful. Modern living can be lonely for many, there's much less social interaction on a community scale than in the past, you need something to cling to.

However, whilst not wishing to offend anyone (and I apologise if I do): Personally I think all mainsteam religion is pants; it's the cause of most wars and the excuse for all the rest, with plenty of resentment and nastiness in between. It's something to fall back on when you're getting on a bit and decide to start praying again 'just in case'. The whole history of religion is based upon controlling the masses. I'm going to ban it when I'm world leader.

I have a soft spot for old pagan stuff though, it makes much more sense to me to worship things yoou can see and things that have a direct influence upon your life and environment, such as the moon, or trees....and stuff (ahem). Go on, hug a tree, go and live in Glastonbury, buy crystals, drink special brew

 

I think its only percevied as old hard and souless as it provides no comfort and no definmite answers. If one can transcend this neediness then science becomes empowering and life affirming.

 

I've never found any scientific fact or item or whatever as empowering or life affirming as a good shag, or running along a cliff top, or jumping into a cold river, or laughing your head off with your mates down the pub, or hurtling downhill on your mountain bike.

We all need a little comfort sometimes. If you transcend such needs you've turned into a droid, you probably have white juice between the looms of wires in your artificial limbs, and you'll never dream, and you'll probably go rusty eventually, or be superceded by a newer model and get thrown away. That's science for you....

 

Could you please direct me to any religious explanation of 'how the universe works' beyond how it began.

 

Then you should lift your sights a little higher.

Needing a little comfort now and again from human relations is not the same as lying to yourself - which is what religion is. To transcend the need to lie to oneself is enlightenment not droidhood. Surely finding pleasure in just running or shagging or drinking is far more mechanistic.

 

Excellent post Julian, I thought. The question is important because we need a strong ethical foundation to the secular, free society that most of us want to keep in the face of a possible onset of religious fundamentalism.

My own view is that we can take the basic guidelines that we're taught as children - 10 commandments, Love thy neighbour, and so on as a starting point. We can add the basic laws of the land.

What have we got so far? Religion or Science? Perhaps the 'holy' books are religious myths that resonate with all of the other deep human myths that are within us and have been an integral part of so many human societies (as Joseph Campbell maintained). In that case, aren't they an inevitable outpouring from our subconscious and thus 'nature' rather than science or religion?

Beyond the basics, the search for enlightenment is the journey through levels of consciousness, transcending not only our lies but our fears and our thoughts.

There are many paths on this journey and the journey never ends. It's a path of spirituality and it's travelled by experiencing 'what is'. I don't think that it's religion though. Religion is what seems to come when you attempt to document the journey and make rules out of the signposts.

Perhaps science can help make this process more efficient and easier to travel. Maybe it can erect some signposts along the way.

Ultimately, I believe that the source of all such important human knowledge is neither religion or science but rather the result of a natural process within us.

Regards
Steve
(your aging hippie friend)

 

I agree with you with regard to religion, but I don't 'transcend the need to lie to myself about it', I just don't believe in it - I haven't made a conscious effort to rise above it in some intellectually defendable way.

BTW the height of my sights are not measurable by you or anyone else, with or without the use of science, and it would be arrogant or ignorant of you to think otherwise! Life is mental, physical, and spiritual, and I believe we need balance in all of them to achieve true happiness....aaahhhh....

P.S. I have nothing against science! I love it, I believe in it (I even took a degree in it), it just ain't everything!

 

Never said it was - but the pursuit of knowledge can be more uplifting than any of those things you describe.

We all need some kind of comfort - but the religion kind of comfort we can all do without as it is the comfort of an opiate.

You did just state shagging and running and drinking - so those sights seem pretty measureable

 

i suppose science has usurped creationism. I think msot here would accept that.

human beings find ways of getting along within communities, sometimes that's codified by some sort of religious dogma , sometimes it isn't and sometimes it used to be

for example you could say that in the uk originally law derived from or was influenced by the church. We still happliy live under many of these laws or conventions that were once reigious doctrine, irrespective of any consensus or otherwise on creationism/darwin/intelligent design.

 

Obviously what you find uplifting is a very personal thing; I personally find interaction with people, and nature, and my environment more stimulating than perhaps you do. It's not just a physical thing, I get something out of it emotionally, or spiritually. It feeds my soul, so to speak! So to me, none of the things I mentioned are measurable.

The serious pursuit of knowledge for me tends to be a means to an end, rather than pursual or acquisition of knowledge for its own sake. I have nothing against casual accumulations of knowledge though, I just don't devote my life to it!

But hey, we're all different, which is good.

P.S. Aren't the Yanks trying to ban teaching Darwinism in certain states - they want to promote the idea of Intelligent Design instead. Bonkers.

 

nature and people are uplifting too - but getting sloshed down the pub is hardly transcendent

 

Here's a question beyond the initial part of this post, which is "why are we here".
Have to say that I've never found the answers from either science or religion to be particularly great, usually being rather wishy washy.

One additional point is that in theory, we "choose" what we want to believe. For example, newtonian laws, make sense, so we accept them. The probability of dieing if I step infront of a bus also looks reasonable to accept, but more esoteric ideas like quantam physics, religion, and whether a black snaic sounds better is a little different. We actively make a choice on whether to believe them or not.
So back to my question about "why are we here". Stikes me that we ourselves should make a choice.

Personally, I thought this one through a couple of decades back and decided that the only point to life is to "enjoy yourself and be nice to people". Assume that is a core level belief and then other things start falling out of it. You don't screw over your neighbour, you are polite and relaxed in traffic queues, you don't break into other peoples homes, you do make the effort to have good times with friends etc etc.

It really is a simple belief and assuming you abide by it, is a whole lot easier to read than the 1000+ pages of the bible.

 

being a relativily new parent i can't help thinking that love is the answer

 

Good thread Julian.

From what I can tell as "science" uncovers more about how our physical universe is built at some point a discovery will be made which will make our natural environment seem supernatural. It is quite possible science will demonstrate that things are not quite what we perceive them to be. In the way that it is proven that particles disappear from our "world" and reappear and things like the fact that when the force of gravity is "turned on" that its influence is immediate both near and far - ie. unlike light or other energy it doesnt travel. These two ideas alone leave me in awe of what we are yet to discover.

Recently various "odd" things have happened to a number of my friends and family, all of the incidents are unrelated and the people live in various parts of the country not in communication, but all the events have been very peculiar. Without going into detail it seems quite clear to me that something remains of people after they are deceased. I'm not one for thinking too much about the paranormal but I'm finding it hard to ignore. If it turns out there is life after death where individuals retain some aspect of their character and consciousness beyond their corporeal existence then other supernatural concepts such as a "creator" might not be that outlandish.

On one hand I value the principles of Buddhism, with no creator and much in common with aspects of thoeretical physics, as far as my tiny mind understands them. In essence a pragmatic way in which to engage life and its inherent suffering and to emerge out the other side accepting the reality and the logic of treating all people and creatures as you would wish to be treated were you that person or creature. A consideration that cause and effect when extrapolated means all events are linked. Ones behaviour should thus be managed accordingly. Of course this is an extremely simplistic way of trying to sum it up.

I think it is the nature of mankind's arrogance that science is generally considered to have dominion over the natural world. I also maintain that those who mock faith on the basis there is no measurable proof are completely missing the point.

 

Agreed and agreed.

 

mr_s,

be excellent to each other and party on dudes is a great philosiphy and one i embrace heartily.

i'm just wondering if there is any way that science (physical, social, chemical or other) will provide a clear cut way that we can all live together withough ****ing on one anothers chips.
the idea that people can't be altruistic in their approach to others without a threat - either implied or real is ultimately depressing however i fear is actually the reality.
i remember hearing that there is a part of the brain that is stimulated by certain 'religious' practices (can;t remember the exact details) but couldn't this be an evolutionary trait? i.e. groups that worship together are more likely to be evolutionarily speaking 'fitter' than groups that don't?
cheers


julian

 

Actually gravity isnt turned off and on at a distance - it propagates at the speed of light

It is also the same kind of arrogance to assume religion has dominion over the natural world. Or that we persist after our death.

Religion is a form of social cohesion gone awry - it might work in small "primitive" communities to tie them together but in our society it has spiralled out of control as this genetic tendency is expressing itself in an environment in which it did not evolve.

For much the same reason african tribesman dont have appendicitius or problems with wisdom teeth - as they are living on the diet they evolved to eat. Grow them in the city and they suffer exactly the same problems as we do.

Organised religion is exactly the same phenomena as appendicitus ;-)

 

Science isnt about dominin over the natural world - it is purely about understanding and manipulation - just as oxygen producing microbes have manipulated the world to make it as we see it.