Sonus Faner Signum flapping cones?

Sonus Faber Signum flapping cones?

Recently been trying out alterative speakers at home:

Got hold of a pair of Sonus Faner Signum, they are *nice*

Up to 11 o'clock on the dial, they are impressive, however when I take my amp's dial beyond 11 o'clock the SF mid/bass cones lose their composure.

Now I know they (the Signums) like a meaty amp - I'm currently using a Cyrus 7 (with PSX-R in case that makes any difference). Whilst the Cyrus 7 is a decently powerful, moderately high current amp (for its size anyway), its certainly not *meaty* and probably not at all ideal for the speakers.

My question:
is the lack of composure in the Signum's mid/bass cone due to the lack of meat in the Cyrus? If so could someone explain the physics of this?

If anything I would have expected an amp lacking sufficient power would simply not drive them enough rather than too much - or is it an issue of control, and in which case please explain...

Or (hopefully not) are the Signum's in some way damaged?

Thanks in advance...
Greg

 

They cannot play very loud, I have a pair as surround and xover at 60hz, 120 watts Bryston power, still I already blew two woofers...

 

Ah thats a shame, so greater amplifcation isnt going to help me?

Oh well I dont think they're for me then
Thanks for the reponse though.
Greg

 

Hi Greg ,
Out of interest , whats the sensitivity of of the speakers?
Its just that 11 o clock on the 7 seems a lot , ie very loud .
ad mittedly my speakers are 91db , but in my old room 10 o clock was the norm and that was loud .
Oh and as for the psx on the 7 , well I ,ve always felt it was a good and worthwhile upgrade . Too me the psx has always been a bigger upgrade on the amp than on the cdp .
Richard

 

Hi Rich.
The Signum's have an 86db sensitivity. 11 o'clock (ie. one notch down from half way) is pretty loud, but my Epilogue R's which have the same sensitivity will handle more without flapping at all and I was hoping the SF's would actually be underpowered by the Cyrus. It appears not. Shame.
Yep regards sound quality I feel the PSX-R was well worth adding, but I'm not sure whether the PSX-R gives the Cyrus amp more oomph though?
Cheers
Greg

 

Not mor oomph , but more control and a bit of added finesse .
Epilogue R,s , what a great little speaker (and which I owned for a while) . The only real problem was the sonic picture was a bit small .(To my ears )
I moved up to the cls 70 ,s after the ruarks which I also liked a lot .
I,m enjoying a love/hate relationship with electra 905,s now .

 

So what are you happy about and what are you unhappy about the Electra 905's?

I'm basically just trying to find the ideal compact stand mount or floor stander (or at least relatively slim due to lack of space) for my living room, but which are capable of delivering a powerful performance when required to.

My budget is probably capped at around 1400 squids. Importing a pair of Meadowlarks is one idea I'm considering, but I wanted to check out the usual domestic suspects first.

I really like the Epi R's, they are a big improvement over the Epi II. Considering their size and relatively low cost (around 200-250 used) they really can deliver!

 

The electras can be a bit unforgiving . If the recording is a bit poor it,s like listening to a cheese grater .And because of my musical tastes I own a lot of not A1 recordings .
I went a bit OTT with sound insulation in my old place (I,ve only realised this recently)and I think I was basically wiping out my midrange (as well as the offending treble) so for a good while I had a very dynamic system with no emotion .
They,re not easy to get right (i,ve been playing with them for 3 years )but when they are I think they,re worth the effort .
You might want to try the cyrus cls70,s (£800 new +£200 for the matching stands ) I kinow its a bit mmmm having all one make but they do work well with the cyrus electronics .
There was a ruark speaker that was selling for £1200 new about 3/4 years ago , but for the life of me I can,t remember the name (Ii think it was the Solus)
It looked interesting and I did contemplate trying them before I bought the jmlabs .But I,d had some trouble sorting a dem for some Jbl ti2k,s (took 6 mnths) and decided against them .

 

just a point on 905,s the tweeter is very bright the 906's use a similar tweeter which seems to sort this out. i have owned both
they love ecosse monocrystal or atlas monocrystal cables.they also love lightweight open frame stands stay away from sand filled ones at all costs.

 

This is interesting , as I,ve not seen this advice before .
Guess what stands I use
Even the stands that jmlabs sell for the 905 look like they,re fillable .
So , in your experience are fillable stands ok , if you don,t actually fill them?
If so I,ll give it a try .
And another question for ya

Do you know if the 906 tweeter will fit the 905 ?
It,s not something that I,d actually just go out and do , but you never know I might stumble across a pair for sale at a really good price someday .
cheers in advance
Richard

 

Antonio,

How loud were those Brystons when you blew the Signums' cones? I only ask because I use the Signums as well (plus sub) with Karan Acoustics amplification. My amplifier pumps out 180 watts into 8 ohms & 300 watts into 4 ohms and the Signums as you know are 4 ohms @ 86dB. Many reviewers of the amp have hinted that lab tests have shown those wattage figures to be conservative. For CD use I usually have the volume knob at 9 o'clock (for turntable use, at 11 o'clock) which is quite loud in my 9 x 6 metres room. However, on several occassions especially when I am home alone, I have the volume knob at 11 o'clock or just over when using my transport/DAC combo (and at 1 o'clock when using the turntable) and at those levels, I can see slight movement in the Signums cones but they don't flap (assuming my understanding of the term "flap" is correct) nor have I blown a single cone in several years of use.

That was why I did not respond to this thread yesterday as I wanted to be sure by trying it out again before posting and at 11 o'clock on the CD last night, the Signums delivered faithfully. So, no problems on this side. However, quite recently, one of my colleagues was brave enough to hook-up his old midi system to his pair of Signums whilst he was waiting for his main amp to be repaired. No doubt, at loud levels, the underpowered midi-system blew both of the Signums' cones and that cost him around EUR 500.00 to repair. So, is there more to your case (technically) than just the fact that the Signums cannot be played loud because that is not my experience.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

Lawrie - by flapping, I just mean distortion is both audible and visible beyond 11 o'clock.

However at 11 o'clock there is no distortion and they play pretty loud and sound good.

The guy I purchased them from said he used a powerful amp and that they really responded to control. As such I initially thought the issue was due to a lack of control from the Cyrus amp.

Maybe they do get on better with certain types of amp?

Lawrie what amplifier(s) do you use?

 

I checked to spec. for the Cyrus 7 amp - considering the Signums are 4ohm load - without the PSX-R continuous power output is 74W/CH, but with the PSX-R added its 90W/CH. Current is 30 Amps peak to peak.

I would have said these figures suggest enough meat to deal with the Signums the issue is simply one of meat. I may be wrong.

 

The first I dont know when it blew, I onlu noticed it wasnt there when I was setting surround levels, and the right sounded rather thin...

The second, I was playing VERY loud, "Crouching tiger ... dragon", but, as I said, they are as surround and small, xover 60hz, the Bryston are 120 watts 8 ohm, 200 watts 4 ohm...

I have seen Signum woofers flapping in the store, playing loud, but not too loud...

Greg,

The Concerto can play loud without problem, but they are not as good as the Signum, particularly the midrange...

 

Antonio - how do they EAII's compare?
Cheers
Greg

 

I wasnt there.....I didnt see it....so I really dont know...

What you describe though sounds like stereotypical description of an amp bottoming out, as you first guessed.

Why not borrow a 'fat' amp from someone?

 

No comparison, I wouldnt have the Signums up front, not very lively, great mids, enough bass, shy highs, not much headroom, but the detailed mids and similar timbre to the EAIIs make them a great match as surrounds, if I dont push them too far, I limited max volume now, just for when I drunk too much...

The EAII are fantastic, lots of energy on bass down to at least 40hz, very lively mids and highs, great staging and dynamics, but they are very hard to drive, Rotel 200 watts clipped at medium levels, Plinius 8200 sounded dull... Bryston handles them fine, Bel Canto bridged even better...

And they look at least as beautiful as Signum... :MILD:

 

Greg,

It appears that my understanding of "flapping" was correct and if that's the case, I'm not sure if we can blame the speakers entirely (I'm not saying that you are though). This distortion issue is also something that I have seen mentioned about the Sonus Faber Electa Amator IIs as well (which will be with me next week) but is it the speakers distorting or is it that the amplifiers are not controlling the speakers properly? Some comment I read repeatedly about Sonus Faber speakers from the Classic Range upwards, is that they are very difficult to drive well or that they require tube power to sing well. This was why the designer Franco Serblin produced the Musica 50 watt p/c solid-state amplifier to counter that argument but even some of his own distributors (e.g. the local distributor here in Lawrieville; Absolute Sounds of the U.K. and Sumiko , U.S) all support the view that the speakers thrive on absolute power - they just love it. But is power everything - what about the amp's ability to control the speakers well. I am not technically savvy when it comes to audio but I will point you to a review that will give you some technical details of my amp and perhaps you might be able to compare those specs to your own Cyrus amp.

I use the Karan Acoustics KA - I 180 amplifier http://www.karan-acoustics.com/products.html (scroll down). It has been reviewed in Hifi Choice, Hifi News & HiFi+ magazines. TNT have also done a review and this quote from the TNT reviewer might have some bearing on what is happening between your Cyrus amp & the Signums and it's something that a few other reviewers have commented on as well because as I said earlier, I don't have that problem. Read on:

The control the amplifier exercises over speakers is almost incredible. I played some very deep bass notes from the Blue Man Group "Audio" CD and watched the bass driver cones on both AR94 and JBL Ti600 - I never saw them move as I usually see them, but boy oh boy, was there serious bass, and then some! This is an easy test anyone can do, and it is very illustrative of how much control the amp has over the speakers - in short, how good is its damping factor. Note I didn't say how "big", but how "good".

See the full review here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/ka-i180_e.html So, I'm sure that some of our more technically minded members may have a view or two but I'm not sure it's a simple case of the speakers not being able to play loud and many Krell amp owners I know also using the same speakers do not appear to have that problem.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

You can of course buy Meadowlarks in the UK, but I guess you're talking about importing as you can get them cheaper that way? If so there are a few ex-dem ones around at the moment that might be of interest. HiFi Experience in London have a couple of pairs for instance (or at least did a week ago), although I can't remember the models.

 

Antonio,

As one SF connoisseur to another, I respectfully disagree with that comment. To say that the Signums are "not lively" or have "shy highs" is not strictly accurate and in all my years of knowing about these speakers, this is the first time I have read such a comment. The Signums are very revealing speakers which demand very good equipment which can be many times more expensive than their price. They are very revealing of weaknesses further up the chain and if you are not experiencing "liveliness" and "great highs" especially with those tweeters then may I suggest that the Signums are simply revealing weaknesses further up the chain in your system?

At over twice the price of the Signums, the EA2s are supposed to be better but not in all areas. The Signums are clearly livelier than the EA2s and I would stick my neck out and say that they have even got better highs than the EA2. However, the EA2 has better mids and low bass performance than the Signums and puts out an altogether bigger performance which I would hope for at the price. However, add a sub to the Signums and the EA2's advantage diminishes although it's mid-bass performance still shines through. Interesting comments though Antonio and I wonder if we could take this issue over to Audio Asylum where there are more individuals with more experience of the brand than on ZeroGain. As I said before, the Signums are just revealing the quality of the signals they are getting from further up the chain so why shoot the messenger? Anyway, when the EA2s make a return visit next week, I'll hook them up for a very serious comparison so in a way, I'm glad you posted these comments.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.