soundproofing the living room

Moved into my new apartment a month ago.

Eventually 'fired up' the hifi a week ago.

Bass, a bit wooly I thought. More hiss than I remember (going to a passive with the horns).

hm. not bad though. Not brilliant. Not bad.


My next door neighbour apparently knocked on the door, but I couldnt hear because I was playing music.

...got an email the following day... TURN THE MUSIC DOWN, I CAN SING ALONG!!!
]

...oh dear..


1 Week later

2 x layers of T50 (£450)

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/pdfiles/t60.pdf

1 x carpet fitter (£130)

...and it's down



T50 then, whats it like to work with, what difference did it make, do I wish I'd gone the whole ''floating floor '' route etc?


THE OLD ROOM
...
OK, the old room. Large, 1930's conversion. high ceilings. 15x18. Bought the place for the size of it (for music) if I'm being totally honest.

THe floor.. chipboard, thin layer of hardboard, and some foam-backed carpet, no underlay.
In between the joists some ''gravel type stuff'' that was there before. We think it a warmth insulation product. Not sure. Like shitty little stones that get everywhere, thats what I'd call it... didn't do much to stop my neighbour being mad, thats for sure.

THE INSTALLATION
Everything out!!
Ouch, my f**kin back.
How boring and how much work was that?

Not as hard work as carrying these tubes of T50 up the stairs, that's how much.
The T50 - needed 7 rolls for the double layer. Each roll, I'd guess somewhere between 30 and 40kg.
For the technical - see the PDF. Weight, a double layer is adding 10kg per sq/m.

Installing it - the floor fitter did it. Just cut it with a stanley knife, dead easy. I'd compare it to laying flooring vinyl. It actually is a very good 'visual comparison'.

So, T50 down, carpet back down. Heavy goods back in. Time at start.. 9:30.. time at finish .. 12:30.

Wired up the hifi. put knick knacks back in. almost.
Time now, 1:45. Half a day's job then.

ACOUSTIC DIFFERENCES.
Well, I didn't measure my neighbours 'noise level before'. It was enough to seriously piss him off though.
I set music to peaks of 90db, which is ''pretty loud'' for me. I listen at this quite often, and then drop it a bit when fatigue sets in.

Went downstairs - his living room is directly beneath. If you listen carefully you can hear it. Noise is comparible with hearing the washing machine come through the wall from his kitchen. His words ''you can hardly hear that, turn it up a bit louder if you like''.

In his bedroom, next door - where he could previously also hear it, and was especially a problem.. nothing at all.

What a difference!


SOUND QUALITY.
Hard to say, I haven't finished the ''room'' yet. It is still a bit echoey due to lack of sufficient soft furnishings. Nearly there with that, haven't 100% moved in yet.

Still - I can say that bass and mid-bass has firmed up. I'm definately hearing ''more of the music'' - less mush.

Frankly, I'd go as far as this - if you live with a wooden floor, you've done nothing apart from put carpet on it.. next time you change the carpet, spend £450 or so on a double layer of this - take it from your ''hifi upgrade money'' if you have such a thing. You won't be dissapointed.
It doesn't make a wooden floor firm up as much as a concrete floor, but it's a very nice compromise.

CONCLUSION
Well, obviously a success.
The floor height has raised 2.5mm per layer, 5.1mm approx total gain. No need to even raise the door.
Sound - better, firmer, bass, more clarity in the mid-range.
Insulation - speaks for itself.

Is it enough? Do I wish I'd done more?
I think it's enough, yes. '' next carpet around'' in another five years or so, I think I'll whack a 3rd layer down. I can play reggae at baddass volume then

One final, final point. My room is LARGE at 18x15. If you have a more modest size, you will find the experience cheaper.

The experts at custom audio say, that typically sound insulation effectiveness is often traditionally thought of as ''weight added per sq/m. This added 10kg with a double layer per sq/m. That's quite a lot. Don't judge T50 by how thin it is (although the more layers the better) - judge it by the fact that it has sound insulation figures that compare favourably with LEAD !..


My only concern now is the ''lady upstairs''. She is elderly, so fingers crossed for hearing limitations !!


Cheers

 

Very interesting and useful post that, thanks. I have got to get around to some serious acoustic treatment in my place soon so it's good to have a user's perspective on a product.

It sounds as though that stuff could be quite effective at damping down resonant panels on equipement as well?

 

alternatively ....

invite the chap/chapess round an discuss you may find that they have a love of music and also work out when they are out or when its appropriate to play music louder .....

the rational of sound insulation is isolation ....

the best methos depending on the construction of the party wall is to create an isolated box within the room this will of course reduce the dimensions of the curret room by a couple of inches all round ..it may be enough just to do the party wall and the floor ...remember that securing anything to the part wall will transmit the sound through ....

realistically you may only be needing to reduce the bass frq rather than the whole range ..

another alternative ..is to use a different room I had to do this till the lady next door became deaf !

as a next to last resort buy a pair of headphones !

 

That's seriously interesting stuff, as my neighbour really doesn't like me much at times.
I wasn't sure what the manufacturer meant regarding the volume reduction at lower frequencies. Is it as effective on low frequencies as high frequencies?

 

Hi Mr Sukube

The PDF shows graphs of the T50 attached to plasterboard (for partition walls) - although it seems to work similarly on floors.

It doesnt work as well on bass as on higher frequencies, but then nothing does of course

For more effectiveness, you just need extra layers..

 

Hi

It comes in a roll, which is about a metre wide, and about 5 metres long. It's really heavy, and the whole lot was delivered on a pallet.

It comes in various version, one of which is 'sticky backed' which would work well for damping something. Even the regular one is 'tacky'.

It is used in applications such as football stadiums to stop resonance of metal panels, pipes etc.

 

NIce report. That T50 is pretty dense stuff. 10Kg/m2 is about the same as a standard sheet (13mm) of plasterboard.

I wonder how much of the advantage comes from simply having an effective airseal - tiny openings can have a disproportionate effect on sound leakage.

 

Hi Felix

One thing I liked about it, it's easily laid-down, and of uniform width. With a double layer (at 10kg/m2) I'm quite sure there should be no openings.

..I even took the spikes off the equipment rack !

It is impressive to have 10kg/m2 for just 5mm of floor height.

For a price/performance ratio I think it's excellent.

People often put concrete impregnated board over the top, which is about another £400 in materials, and will add about an inch.

For £400 more, I could have 2 more layers of this stuff, and be up to 20kg/m2 - and just 10mm total floor height being raised.

I wonder how much more effective a floating floor solution would be than simply adding this much sound proofing mass to the floor.


Regardless, I am delighted to find a simple double layer is enough to give sufficient difference for domestic 'loud' levels.

 

Yes, that's a significant uplift in performance, and the compactness is very attractive.

A floating floor would help reduce impact noise being carried down to your neighbours, but without significant mass in and of itself it wouldn't necessarily help with airborne acoustic isolation to any greater degree - and it would take up c.30mm or more requiring cutting all the doors etc. Not much fun.

 

Are there pictures of your speaker system somewhere or details of what it comprises?


On a related issue, we had an extension built 2 or 3 years ago and as it was nearing completion we wondered how easy it would be to create a self contained upstairs apartment within it. The local planning officer advised with regard to the necessary measures regarding the spread of fire but also what would be needed in terms of soundproofing. It would have involved an extra layer of flooring boards but also filling the gaps between each joist 2/3 full with sand. As we'd already got the first layer of flooring boards down we decided not to bother with this as they'd all have had to come up again to get the sand in. I was just surprised by how strict the noise standards now appeared to be for new built projects with this intended end use.

 

Yes, in England and Wales the Building Regs standards got beefed-up in 2003 - see Approved Document E (it contains some typical example details if you are interested - do remember that these represent minimum standards)

 

Hi PureSound -

I actually sent you a PM on wigwam, as I have a question you'll bound to know the answer to

I will do a few pics for you.

..... brb

 

The lounge.

It is 15feet wide, 18 long.

jbl 2405
tad 4002
tad 1601b

 

did that work? having picture-problems

 

Oh Puresound ,
Guy

Have a look at the T50 PDF in reference to 'fire safety' it may be that it's resistance to fire (or at least spreading it) would also help the planning department of your conversion.

Just a thought.

 

lost my post... dammit

I can hear music with peaks of 84-87db from below, but it is at near whisper levels.. definately diminished.

It is more audible at one side of the room (below the speakers) than the other side.

I am thinking about decoupling them somehow - a more attractive version of ''concrete blocks on rubber bases''... but that sort of thing.

Anyone seen anything...

1) ready made, comes in various sizes
2) cheap
3) massy...?

I can always glue rubber on the bottom..

Open to suggestions here..

 

I've had some success doing exactly that in my (2nd Flr) flat by locating the H2s -on their spikes - on slate slabs sat on squash balls. I went through entire pallets of exterior paving slate slabs at local B&Q and found two fair pieces 600 x 300 x30mm, for £14 - bargain; scrubbed and oiled they even look reasonable.

I dont' think the slabs themsleves have to be particularly massy, if the whole speaker bears on them. Anyway, it was only meant to be a cheap trial which has proved more than 'good enough'; less structure-borne noise conducted into the flat below. Definitely worth a go.

 

Yes, a good idea that - stone on 1/2 squash balls.

The jury is out whether sonics will be improved, but it should help the speaker going through the floor - or cheap enough to try to fix an obvious problem.

Another, I remember people doing 'wooden boxes with inner tubes inside' - that is an easy DIY job I could do in a weekend.

Felix - have you actually noticed less sound being transmitted as a result ...100%?

I'd like to know pretty well before embarking on a DIY jaunt..

Thanks

 

Yes, playing dub of an evening no longer provokes Iris

It was particularly cabinet -borne noise I wanted to deal with - the H2s being large, heavy, and spiked (no option). The floor is 230yrs old and very slightly bouncy - the room is the same size as yours, but that's only 2/3rds the joist span. The result has definitely extended what is agreed reasonable late in the evening.

BTW I used the squash balls whole - but they're squished to less than 10mm high now!

Edit to add: the H2s have the truncated bass 'horn' open on the bottom of the cabinet, another reason I wanted them on something decoupled from the floor - rather than acoustically loading it directly.

 

Chris, if you're willing to spend a bit of money, I can highly recommend SSC bases for your needs.

http://www.ssc-akceptaudio.de/