Squeeze Box Touch Vs. Original Files

Introduction:

There was someone over on PFM who owns a SB Touch and said he can hear a clear difference between the analog outputs of that, and his Naim CD player. I don't think this is at all likely if the test conditions are fair (i.e. blind and level matched). So, I compiled a test.


Method:

I have copied four tracks from the original CDs in uncompressed format. I have also taken these tracks and played them via the SB Touch analog outputs and recorded them again with my ADC (a modified Behringer DEQ). I've cut off the ends of the files to clam copyright issues.


Test Procedure:

I have uploaded the files. The first set of files I have labelled for you to know which is the original file and which was recorded from the SB Touch analog outputs. This should let you get to know the sound, if there is any.

The files following this are simply labelled A and B, so you can see if you can hear which is the SB Touch. Four tracks are available.

Joe Cocker - Look What You've Done
Joan Armatrading - Me Myself I
Tomasz Stanko - Sweet Thing
Miles Davis - So What

If you can't reliably identify the different files then I put it to you that the SB Touch analog outputs (and my ADC!) are transparent.

I'm not going to do a poll. You can reveal your opinions if you want, or not.


SB Touch and Original Rip:
http://www.mediafire.com/?t91wr55ya6qabkp

Mystery Files:
http://www.mediafire.com/?83qrdwfbvcegz09
http://www.mediafire.com/?tshxmxkhyivnh4r
http://www.mediafire.com/?sz3v62xych9j1vg
http://www.mediafire.com/?3txn4298tmh864c

 

SqueezeBox Vs. Original for your reference - http://www.mediafire.com/?t91wr55ya6qabkp

Miles Davis - http://www.mediafire.com/?83qrdwfbvcegz09
Joe Cocker - http://www.mediafire.com/?sz3v62xych9j1vg
Tomasz Stanko - http://www.mediafire.com/?tshxmxkhyivnh4r
Joan Armatrading - http://www.mediafire.com/?3txn4298tmh864c

 

Just a quick post to inform all I'm the chap @ PFM that reported my SBT sounds different from my Naim CDPs.

I'll report my findings with this test as well but do keep in mind that even though I'm comparing the same files you'll access here, they'll be in a different order from the ones you'll experience and report on. (Mine are sourced from a CD Simon made and kindly shipped to me here in the US.) This eliminates an additional source of bias should I read posts here before I get chance to listen to the CD.

For me, the most interesting aspect of the test will be if I hear a difference between Simon's "So What" file and my original Columbia CD on my CDS2 and CD3.5. We've already discussed the two different versions available on the market (my original and a second, remastered release which corrects speed issues recently discovered on the master tape) to make sure we're comparing apples to apples.

Post your impressions once the test begins and I'll follow-up with mine once I receive the CD and move forward with the test (hopefully in seven days or so once the disk arrives here in the States)

regards,

dave

 

Dave I've no idea if my files are from the remaster or not. I suggest you compare the files on the CD I sent, not the CD you have.

 

Oh man...I could have sworn we discussed that. If I do find So What in the same key on your cd vs my production copy, I'll report any or no differences with a disclaimer that we can't verify the master. Regardless, no problem either way, I'm more than happy to work with what we've got.

 

Why does it matter what master it was taken from?

 

IIRC, the key the songs were played in have been altered with the *latest* release on CD. Additionally, I have no idea if the original master was used in *all* releases, various safety copies or whether audible differences could simply exist on various releases due to aging tape.

This means I can't honestly compare my copy of the CD with your CD which I was most interested in if they were from the same mastering/release as mine (this doesn't affect your test of course which is to see if I simply hear differences between the tracks on your CD which were taken from one release) FWIW, my copy is the first CD remastering so doesn't have the altered pitch.

 

having heard various recordings of "SO WHAT" m.d. including the master from mobile fidelity and sony's sacd , i still prefer the 45 rpm album copy of the kind of blue studio version from the original master tape on vynil not re-mixed to the market release, if you have heard that version then try to digitalize it and hear the difference,

 

Why did they change the key Dave?

I found mine is the Columbia/Legacy 1997 release. Which it also says 'Originally released 1959 by Sony Music'.

At any rate I don't understand how it is informative to compare your own CD to the tracks on mine. Even if you want to investigate whether the digital copy and CD burn process is transparent, it's a sighted test where you know which CD is which, so you can be open to all sorts of bias.

The entire reason for making and posting you a CD is so that we can remove bias. You know one track is a bit-for-bit copy of the shop CD* and the other has been through the SB Touch and ADC. The fact you don't know which track is which, allows you to be fully un-biased in your judgement.

*Unless you think the digital copy process is not accurate, or you simply don't believe me?

 

I can't remember the details as to why though I think it had somthing to do with Evan's piano (notice I said *think*.) I'll do some digging on the 'net later and post what I find.

We may have the same release then. Mine is catalogue number: CK 40579

Nope, it can be done blind. My wife can switch the disks. I did the very same with my SBT, CDS2 and CD 3.5 and I easily indentified the correct player.

Agreed..it's an unbiased test.

I don't know enough about the science of audio reproduction in general to make any pronoucements about what is definitively wrong so I make no comment or make it clear my comments are speculation.

If I can't accurately identify which track is which on your CD, I'll report it as such and leave the "why" up to others.

My SBT and my CDS clearly sound different even with blind tests. If your daisy-chaining of the signal reveals no change in the tracks on your disk, I could only conclude something is either wrong with my SBT since the CDS has recently been overhauled at Naim or your system has an issue with doesn't allow the difference to be captured. That's the only logical conclusion I could draw other than the analogue output stages might come into play here. (not trusting you isn't an option in my book -you've never proven to be untrustworthy)

 

the columbia vinyl i have is CS 8163 1995 from sony remastered from the original tapes at recording speed of 45 rpm. the whole album, again not the famous street release

 

I suppose it can, but I imagine it would be tricky to swap discs without any sign whatsoever of the disc playing; accidentally seeing the disc, noticing the number of button presses to cue the track, or reading your wife who you know intimately.

I'd suggest putting the player in another room on long cables if you go this route.

You don't think it is possible that your previous experiment testing the 3 players was flawed because it wasn't level matched?

 

Simon,

The wife swapping thing works perfectly as I have no desire to know what disk is playing (what would be the point if I want the most impartial test?) She can randomly access the tracks while standing twenty feet away from me and behind a basement staircase that I sit in front of making any visual or audible clues impossible to detect. The only way I'd know would be to open my eyes and look at the track display on the CDP which would make the whole thing a waste of our time.


I level matched as best as I could any two machines under test and even handicapped the CDPs on several occasions with them at a lower volume and the SBT at a higher volume. The CDPs still won even though I found two aspects of the SBT's sound that was better than the CDPs.

Not sure how much more fair I could get, I really bent over backwards hoping the SBT would win as it would eliminate an expensive to purchase and maintain CDP(s) and potential mechanical issues altogether from the equation which could only be a good thing. It just didn't work out that way. The SBT simply sounds dull and lifeless in comparison.

regards,

dave

 

Dave, before concluding the test is flawed should you not hear a difference between tracks, we need to consider how it is possible that no audible difference exists.

Firstly, it might be that there is no audible difference between, them because the SB Touch and ADC introduce no audible distortions.

Secondly, you say that maybe the test procedure is somehow incapable of capturing the difference. This is impossible, because we are not comparing two captured sources. We are comparing a capture of the SB Touch vs. an unaffected pure digital duplicate of the original CD. Even if the capture method for the SB Touch is poor, it will only introduce more artifacts. The only way for no difference to occur is if the SB Touch and ADC introduce no distortions.

 

The only problem is an audible difference exists between my SBT, CDS and CD 3.5 blind, sighted or with long term listening. I can only conclude my SBT is defective (possible) or my CD 3.5 and CDS both simply sound better (possible as neither CDP sounds like each other as well.)

Of course, I can make no claim against your SBT or any of your sources as I haven't heard them yet.

 

Dave, if you don't hear a difference between the tracks on the CD (you might hear one), but you heard one in your previous test, it seems far more probable that you didn't level match the items sufficiently. You said you made your best effort and I can't ask for more than that, but that also doesn't mean it is good enough. What exactly did you do?

 

Simon,

I played a 1 kHz test tone from a old hifi setup CD and tried to balance both as close as I could (within 1.0 dB on average) with an SPL meter from my iPhone. Admittedly crude and not really level matched as it shoud be but...

To be honest, there was no change in the sound or my preference when matched as best as I could do it or when the output between devices varied considerably. The differences remained consistent so my preference didn't change when I purposely made the volume lower on the CDPs vs the SBT just as another test for expectations.

FWIW, the wife ran the controls during a few A/Bs on this one and I had no trouble identifying the devices. Luckily, I didn't purchase the SBT expecting it to beat my CDPs, I had just hoped it would. It was purchased to replace a dead Nat 101 which needs a new tuner head that I'm not sure I want to pay for when I can only p/u one station from home that I like due to line-of-sight and distance issues with the house on the low on the side of raven in a deep valley. The SBT is a clear winner in this respect for me with top-quality sound (just not the best) while being extremely affordable and the Internet is the World's Greatest Antenna compared to what I had before;-)