Subjectivists vs. Objectivists - a roadmap for peace

Quite an intense couple of days it's been hasn't it? In many ways I think the recent cable debates are perhaps not quite just like the old analog vs. digital, valve vs. solid state, flat earth vs. round earth standards that come around from time to time. The subjective vs. objective debate would appear to go across those sometimes large divides and cut right to the core what it means to be an audiophile. It certainly seems to be the most divisive of all, to the extent that there are forums that ban the debate (specifically, the DBT debate) entirely. I've never heard of a forum banning say, analog vs. digital debates. I sense that the forum has possibly come to a cross-roads and just ignoring the past couple of days and hoping things will go back to normal is probably not going to work. On the one hand it seems absurd to take the forum so seriously but OTOH if the forum is to continue then the "What's the fuss about? it's only a forum!" attitude isn't going to work.

I'll tell you quite honestly that there were a couple of occasions today when I was ready just to jack the whole thing in. Sod the forum. I maintain it in my own time and out of my own money (and I'm quite happy with that) because I believe it's something generally fun and interesting to have. However, the amount of shit I've had to put up with over the last few days is definitely not worth it

Now, as far as the objective vs. subjective thing goes I'm not going to say it can't be discussed. I think the forum should always be open to any kind of debate. Once you start banning certain topics it's the thin end of the censorship wedge. What I will say is that people should endeavour to post based on their experiences - that goes for both sides. Experiences where something made no difference at all are just as valid as ones where there was a difference. I think most importantly though that people should respect other people's views, whether they agree with them or not. Ridiculing someone either because they don't believe in cables or because they do only worsens the animosity.

Now, to the people who possibly feel that there's been an objectivist "takeover" I would say that's just not the case. Even with the small number of people who've responded to the poll it shows that by far the majority of people here are subjectivists. If you want the debate to me more balanced then you have to speak up . I would maintain that the forum was fairly unbalanced in favour of subjectivists until recently and that objectivists who chipped in occasionally got fairly short shrift. If anything, the forum has become more balanced recently. Of course, people feel most at home in a forum where most people agree with them - by definition an unbalanced situation. Conversely they might well think that a forum had "lost its way" or become "unbalanced" if it in fact had become more balanced simply because there are now more people disagreeing with them.

In a forum where all views are welcome then a discussion about which mains cable to buy must be able to tolerate someone challenging whether mains cables make any difference at all, most especially if they have tried them and found them to make no difference. If the tweakers can't be challenged then what's the point? We'd just be left with one big love in and the forum would be very boring indeed.

From a moderator/owner's point of view there's really nothing I can do to move the general view of the forum one way or the other and neither would I do it if there was a way. All forums have their natural ups and downs and their vogues for one view or the other. It's just the way it goes. I hope that going forward we can all be a bit more civil to each other when these issues come up. I don't think that anyone here would post something they didn't believe in just for the principle. I also don't think that anyone's out to convert anyone to their side of the argument allthough I do think that some people on the objectivist side of the fence feel passionately that people are being taken in and fleeced for a lot of money for stuff that does nothing. What they have to remember is that it's their money. If they want to spend money on a cable or whatever which they believe makes a difference then they're entitled to do so. No one has put a gun to their head.

Hopefully, we can work it out

Now, just to conclude (you can ignore this bit if you want ) I wanted to state what my views on the whole thing are more clearly because I think that there have been some misunderstandings.

CABLES: I have never said that "no cables make a difference, or ever will". I do however maintain that all the cables I've tried (of all kinds) haven't made a differnence, or made a difference so small that I couldn't be sure I wasn't imagining it. I've since re-tested some things and found that they really did make no discernable difference at all (the Eupens, the Olson blocks, the Isolda (compared to Dynaudio OCOS)). At the weekend I tried my VDH D102III XLR cables in lowrider's system against his (cheaper) Apogee Wyde-Eye XLRs and I heard no difference. He says he heard a subtle difference. I'm not saying he's a liar and I'm also not being obstinate. He heard a difference, I didn't. People hear things differently. Incidentally, the tests I carried out on my system with the Eupens etc were all done in the presence of an audiophile friend of mine who is definitely on the subjectivist side of the fence and he also didn't hear any differences.

Purely from the scientific standpoint I find it very difficult to accept that cables could make a difference but I'm not ruling out the possibility. It would be extraordinary though if audiophiles had somehow stumbled on some as yet unknown scientific phenomenon.

Then there's the cable cost issue. I think even many subjectivists would agree with me here that there are many cables which, whether they "work" or not are just ludicrously overpriced, regardless of what R&D may have gone into them. I think it's fairly beyond dispute that cables have by far the highest margins in the hifi world. The companies are also generally trading on utterly bogus pseudo-science claims. I don't think there's a single cable company which really knows how and why their cables work.

SUPPORTS: Speaker stands, absolutely. Equipment supports? I've not heard differences with them but I believe that they could make a difference, albeit a small one. Equipment supports are on much more solid scientific ground than cables.

COMPONENTS: Of course there are differences here . Sometimes surprisingly small ones though.

That's it :SLEEP:

Michael.

 

Or the main protagonists could just spend less time bickering and go and listen to some music through your hi-fi?

If anyone would rather indulge in pointless wind ups and online point scoring than listening to music then you have got this hi-fi thing very wrong.

 

Very true, but the people who spend time on the forum would spend that time here regardless. I don't think anyone has just come here for a fight

Michael.

 

Are you sure?

I visit and post here occasionally in the hope of learning or sharing something, but as you have surely noticed this forum is dominated by fixed viewpoints and little cliques only too happy to gang up on any opinion that does match thier own.

The threads rarely have anything new to offer (apart from the 'Buy & Sell' forum!) and often descend into the same old antagonists humouring and/or offending each other just for the fun of the fight...

 

Steady on old bean. I think you probably understand me better than most after our recent bass loading joust on the WAD forum.

Sure, I enjoy a bit of banter with my mates and I enjoy eliciting people's views on subjects I don't know much about. Occasionally I'll log on to have a moan (like when I broke the stylus on my beloved cartridge). From time to time I'll post something in haste and get into a row with someone. I hate that when it happens and prefer to think of myself as, by and large, a peacemaker.

What really turns me on, however, as you probably know, is a debate that interests or stimulates me, particularly if it can inspire me to better understanding of some aspect of my field or a bit of creativity.

From time to time I get this stimulation on the ZG forum. Certainly often enough to keep me interested.

I like to visit and contribute to various forums. I enjoy it and I believe that it's probably in my interest to do so - as long as I don't make too much of a fool of myself in the process. I generally try to balance any 'commercialization' with giving real knowledge where I have it.

ZG has a number of strong characters with strong views. Sparks are bound to fly from time to time and occasionally they ignite. Still and for all that I need a forum which I can call home.

What better forum to choose than one where my speakers come in for a fair bit of stick and where they fully cooperate with this view by misbehaving whenever they visit the home of a fellow Zero Gainer? Where I don't have to be on my best behaviour because enough people have met me? Where I can enjoy the company of like-minded musical piss artists and dope heads who are all nevertheless serious in their hi-fi quest?

I would rather that there was less sniping and no ridiculing of others and I would rather that people didn't take things so personally.

Still, on the whole I like it here.

So Michael, please keep it up. You're doing a pretty good job on the forum and, I hope, a little bit of behind-the-scenes fence mending off forum.

I for one appreciate it. Thanks. :respect:

 

Is that a little awesome in your pocket or just enjoying the debate?

Yep. I believe the first thread in which your speakers were mentioned here had a couple of negative comments on the looks. I wonder if these have changed now MOre people have seen them in the wood?

Keep up the good work Mike

 

That is a very well balanced post Michaelab,imho.When I saw the title i thought it was yet another whinge from a moderator who is unable to separate their personal views from objective moderation-having been in net forums of various sorts for many years this is what tends to happen............and ultimately some sort of forced "banning of certain subjects" start to be enforced.

Its very difficult job moderating a forum,and i have long been a supporter of free speech in these places,and it was a nice surprise to find you just asking the so called subjectionist to calm down a bit,rather than get uppity about it all,you deserve respect for that

but i still maintain how ridiculous it is for anyone to moan about these arguements,why on earth dont they just ignore the thread? enter the debate if you wish,ignore it if you wish,its easy! and if someone hijacks your thread and goes off on one,why not just tell them to go away, ie have a arguement about argueing?

these are important debates that happen all the time for hi-fi buffs,and new members will want to have them,"subjectionists virgins" if you like

the worst that can happen is the veteran members moan all the time,forgetting that new members are joining all the time,the forum would descend into a clique very quickly,with new members feeling that they cant say anything for fear of an arsey old boy moaning about it

so what i say,just let the thing roll and take its natural course,for the sake of new mebers and encouraging the new members to start threads

 

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion.....but they shouldn't ram in down other peoples necks! Well not without small comments I reply.

I'm suprised that you can't tell the difference between cables.......though that may not be the cables fault. Often the room, gear and even the listener can mask the often small changes. Just a thought you could try listening to those cheap and nasty freebies you get[IC's] and then swapping to a so called really good set.

I've been into Hifi since oh '76ish and heard most of the gear mentioned on the forum. I can still tell within the first minute that there has been a change to the gear, though trying to describe the change is much more difficult [though rarely impossible ].

I agree with much of your original post, and you have my thumbs up for the good job your doing.

 

I must admit this thread has left me puzzled. What has been intense? There have been some discussions involving objective vs subjective appraisal in hifi, but I really dont see the problem TBH, and then this comes, seemingly out of the blue. Perhaps I have missed something here (I rarely get the chance to read threads properly at work I must admit), but it just seems to me that this post seems to suggest if people do not agree with you then you are going to consider jacking in the forum?

I offer my sincerest apologies if I have got this totally wrong, like I say I rarely have the time these days to read things properly, but if what I said above is really the case, then it is not a good thing for the forum IMO, anyone who should dare to go against the grain risks being singled out, and potentially, perhaps even cause the death of the forum. If that was the case, then surely it should be written into the AUP, but I have to say, I am inclined to believe I have missed something, and I really hope I am wrong.

 

Paul,

I'm not saying that at all. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me, that happens all the time. I do have a problem though with being mercilessly ripped to shreds just because I've changed my views on cables. Worse, is people accusing me of some kind of ulterior motive behind my change of view, questioning the sincerity of it. Now it might seem like spoilt brat behaviour but after all I am the forum owner and I wouldn't see many people able to continue to run a forum where they were continuously ridiculed. Other members simply have the option of leaving the forum or giving it a rest for a while. I don't have that option.

This thread itself came out of the fact that, behind the scenes, I've become aware that a significant number of regular posters are getting more and more hacked off with the way the forum was going. It did seem that almost every other thread would descend into subjectivist vs. objectivist warfare after the 4th post or so. I was hoping to perhaps prevent that happening as much in the future, without restricting anyone's right to say what they think.

Michael.

 

Michael,

I'm saddened to see your reaction to the posts of the last couple of days. My "baiting" was I consider both structured and fair, if provocative. Do I consider that unacceptable?

Of course not. To my eyes it's normal behavior on ZG. Many members are the subject of such posts regularly. Take James and Mana, ditto with his ATC's, WM with his tweaks, Mick with his CDS3, the list is long. I too come in for some stick for system changes and prior to that, the use of Tact.

What you have experienced is to my mind no different. You left yourself open by expressing a view and were prodded to justify it. This happens to anyone on ZG. Most of us don't take it too seroiusly - how can you- it's only hifi at the end of the day and means absolutely nothing in the great scheme of things.

If you get wound up by a bit of jousting I'm sorry. Without banter, this forum would be a very dull place - after all there's only so much hifi to talk about. Personal insults are another thing, they are totally uncalled for and simply show when someone has lost the argument.

I don't feel any of the last couple of days posts have resulted in you being insulted Michael, so I cannot understand the reaction. Many of the derogatory terms used by the objectivista could be deemed insulting by more sensitive individuals, look back and I'm sure you will see that.

Anyway, I agree that you are at a crossroads. ZG either allows a bit of jolly jousting, or limits itself to factual discussions about hifi related subject matter. If you are to allow the baiting to continue across the board, you must be able to take it when some of it comes your way.

 

I suppose one thing to be aware of, not spelling doom and gloom, though, is that everything has a shelf life and becomes 'tired' witness programs like casualty, pop bands, etc..
hifi mags which spout the same stuff recycled, golf mags too, cure your slice, putt better, get more yards on your drives, there is only so much and it gets recycled and repackaged....nothing new under the sun.

So objectively, its logical that one day in the future, not now hopefully, the forum will 'get tired' .

I enjoy this forum, it has a great spread of characters, I try to share what I have learned, and take what others have learned, I hope I am not dogmatic, tho' sometimes I probalby err that way.

Michael is a nice guy, and does a great job, the forum works so well, too, it is a shame it descends into the old debates that so polarise opinions. It is one thing to share opinions and disagree, another to personally ridicule and insult, sure in a playful way, but not personal.

I read the cable article quickly, but like PB, I can't really see anything like Michael says, again please correct if I am wrong, however what Michael says up top is spot on, and if he is getting ripped to shreds for that, it does seem uncalled for, sure a bit of tongue in cheek teasing is part of this forums life.

The one thing is, each to his own, and what is right for him, whilst tolerating the rights of others to hold different views.

It must be tough keeping a balance between free speech and deleting posts which have overstepped the mark. I think the balance is right, though it does get a bit tiresome seeing some of the old things ever resurfacing, I suppose the reason being there are the 2 camps who hold different views and they will always hold to them, he other never side having been convinced satisfactorily.

 

FWIW I think this forum is a good one, and there are some excellent contributors. I'm sorry if my cable thread degenerated, I was trying to point out how ideas like directionality can take hold and become popular.

I've personally never heard any significant differences with mains leads, having tried Naim, Music Works (which I use - despite some saying that they 'kill the music', whatever that means) and Eupen.

I have, however, heard significant differences between Naim (signal) interconnects and Mana Stealth interconnects (which I use in preference to the Naim ones). I am grateful that I was given all of the non-standard leads which I am using free of charge, so I don't have the bind of having paid large amounts for them, and hence having to either pretend that they are better, or admit that I'd made a foolish mistake.

A bit of banter goes around. By and large it is good-natured.

 

interestingly, as well as companies not knowing how cables work, pharmacologists and drug designers are uncertain how some medicines work, eh James....? now that is scary

 

We all handle 'jibes' in a different fashion, some it's like water off a ducks back, or they have Rhino ride for skin, others take things more personally and are more sensitive.
Yes both myself/merlin have exchanges some times quite heated, but we know the un written rules, those who are new to the forum, might feel we regulary conduct war games reconstructions at Bosworth with battle axes and 2 handed swords
(usually on the 3rd sunday of the month )
A lot of forum memebers are passionate about one thing or another, Me with me box of Tweeks, Bub with his mana, Mike B with the Dac 64, Timpy and his speakers, merlin previously with his Tact and Steve M with his little awsomes and so on
We all fight our corner especially if you feel it makes YOUR systems do want you want it to, its human nature.
I do fully agree that a fair few people hear no difference, not just cables, but isolation and mains, it's not a crime, same as if you do hear a difference. Ian stated the obvious, every ones ears are different verbaitum.
Matters arn't helped we you get mags devoting large sections to
:mana: what is it any way?, that sort of difference maybe only attainable by subsituting a Arcam A85 for a Burmester ?
Prespective and placement with in a given system will give more realistic answers I feel.
Pricing of such products, is proberly the most 'inflaming issue' of the whole melting pot, I do again agree, there are some rude £$ values placed on all forms of hifi, not just cables/stands/mains, but the hardware too.
One item I would say, at least give some a demo before slating it, saying because it doesn't conform to 'x' and 'y', without hearing it first, is well 'Just not cricket old bean'
Every one to get the same oppotunity on Z/G is they way it should be, fun/lively/tekie/stupid/indepth or comical.
It's what makes Z/G it's own place. T.

 

Such as why thalidomide causes birth defects if used during the early stages of pregnancy, or stops the skin lesions of certain forms of leprosy, or is remarkably effective in putting certain cancers into remission.

Those effects have of course all been scientifically proven . Most of those "we don't know why" effects start out as side effects of drugs originally designed for a different purpose. Such as Viagra, which was designed as a drug for hypertension, not for male erectile disfunction . I think the workings of viagra are reasonably well understood though.

Michael.

 

I do fully agree that a fair few people hear no difference, not just cables, but isolation and mains, it's not a crime, same as if you do hear a difference.

A friend of mine who isn't into hi-fi told me that couldn't hear any difference between his midi system at home, and my (alleged) 'uber-rig'. I have to confess that I couldn't quite think of anything to say at that point!

 

I have even heard of a 2 hifi mags trying to account for the big differences in reviews between the 2 mags. by putting the blame upon something inconsequential, whearas the obvious conclusion is that we all have different hearing, and avertising revenue.

that is partly why you cannot go by a review in totality, as you are assessing something that is not 'definable' its just each others hearing.

trouble is, we like certainty, and it goes against the common mans grain to say, don't take note of the mags verdicts. We naturally feel better if something is wonderful in a mag.
If there is just ones own opinion, somehow we are our own authority, and feel isolated, away from the herd, and less sure of ourselves. Strength in numbers, the weak straggler buffalo/gazelle gets picked off by the lions, the monkey who goes against the group gets mobbed etc.

Just as someone likes spicy food, garlic, and someone doesn't, means they could like/dislike sounds differently. That is obvious, and overlooked.

 

I guess you're joking there, Data, but if not, we are one almighty complex bit of chemistry, and it constantly astounds me that we know ANYTHING about us and how we work.

 

dead serious mate, pyschaitric ones in particular