The AV kit is going

After a lot of thinking, I've decided to ditch the AV amp and extra speakers.
Me, I'm going back to purely stereo for movies also.

For years I've run an AV system, firstly with an add on dolby pro-logic processor (that was back in 94') and I'm now on my second Dolby Dig AV amp, both of which used front pre-outs to my stereo.

One of the things that has struck me is simply just how rubbish most AV amps sound, particularly their pre-amp sections.
I think the best av pre-amp I've ever heard was a Naim AV2, which was miles better than most, yet still no better than my old Nait 5 as a stereo pre-amp (and that's a Nait 5 without a hicap).

Having made it to a better stereo pre-amp now, and during av, I can't help but notice that the AV side of things is starting to sound pretty ropey when compared to the stereo side of things.
The worst thing about it is that I know that to deal with it would be either enourmously expensive or possibly impossible as I think I'd be wanting something better than a Naim AV2, and I doubt there's much out there under 5k that would fit the bill.

So in future I think I'll simply run a DVD player directly into the naim pre-amp and have stereo AV.

Now, my only real question is whether an external DAC would do a good job on films (e.g. a meridian 203, which I've owned before, but never tried with films). Any ideas?

 

Have you fallen over and hit your head? What's going on!

Agree'd the pre-amp sections of AV amps are not great, but can be by-passed.

I guess it is whether you like the movies as much as the music.

Each to their own, but I can't see me getting rid of the AV system some how, I love me movies as much as my music, and I like to hear both at their best. (or should that be to the best of my bank account ).

Of course if you have enough room you could always have 2 system, hi fi and AV setups.

 

I do have two systems, a steadily improving stereo system, and an AV system which is starting to sound a little cr@p in comparison.

Unfortunately you're wrong about one thing, you simply can't avoid the pre-amp section in an AV amp.

Think about this.
I take a digital output from my DVD player into the AV amp. The DACs in the AV amp put out an analogue output, which is then passed through the AV amps analogue pre-amp section.
Following the volume control and other horrible circuits that it's shunted through it's either sent to the internal power amp section, or out via the pre-outs to potentially a seperate stereo amp.
The result is that I'm reliant on a cheap and nasty AV amp pre-amp circuit. From what I've heard, it's simply pants.

Taking a straight stereo output from a DVD player directly to my dedicated stereo pre amp will mean:
1. Well I could try using an external DAC, maybe an old unit under a couple of hundred notes, which would improve the analogue output from the DVD player.
2. Clearly I will NOT get 5.1 channel sound
3. For the stereo sound that I will get, it will be MASSIVELY better than the equivalent front stereo channels have been giving me to date.

Please bear in mind that I used to run a 5.1 channel system. More recently I switched out my stereo kit, leaving me without rear speakers (they were switched to the fronts). Frankly neither myself or my missus really missed them.
So in effect, all we'll lose will be the centre speaker (sub is connected using both low an high level inputs, that'll still be there).
Now tell me, what do you think is going to sound better:
a) a £500 pair of stereo amps for the fronts in conjuntion with a £350 centre and a £300 AV amp. This using a DD input
or
b) an £1800 pair of stereo speakers, driven by £2200 stereo amp using a stereo input

As the av kit will be sold, might even be able to finance a half decent DAC to deal with the DVD output.

 

mr s,
get yourself a yamaha dsp e800 and some cheap rear and center speakers (or keep the center you have). this just passes out a line level for the front stereo pair to an unused input on your pre-amp. you can adjust the output level so it;'s in the range of your cdp (so no nasty video to cd speaker damaging volume nasties). these are cheap as chips and do a very decent job of integrating with a naim system (i've used one for over 4 years now) you could put this together for 300 ukp for the dsp and another couple of hundred for the speakers from your nearest richers so 500 quid for a reasonable a/v system and zero impact on your precious stereo. of course you won;t be able to listen to your cd's being mangled by pro-logic 2 but who cares.
if you're used to the effects channels used in movies then you'll probably miss them a lot more than you think you will.
cheers


julian

 

It's a personal thing I feel, as is everything.

Getting on for two years ago, I did exactly the same thing. Ditched the 5.1, didn't need it, two channel for movies would be fine, better quality and all.

Was happy for a couple of months. Then realised what I was missing. For me, modern films benefit more from quantity than quality, surround effects heighten your involvement in the subject, just as good two channel heightens your enjoyment of music.

So for me, even a humble 5.1 system with sub sat set up is worth it, movies in 2 channel are the equivalent of Bob Dylan in 5.1. Not as the producer intended.

 

Sell the AV gear and improve the main HIFI, seems perfectly logical to me, but then I only realy watch the Simpsons!

 

Are but garyi the Simpsons is in DD as well so your missing out!

Ok I can see and understand you want better quality stereo sound, this is something I have been trying to do as well, but I don't want to ditch the AV, so what about seeing if there is another way to set your system up?

Like julian has mentioned, adding a seperate DD decoder / amp for the center / rear, will not interfer with your main system. It is a shame that only Yammy used to make a reasonable priced one (I think its discontinued now).

I see you have gone for the add power amp approach, and from what people have told me will not cure your problem.

I am going to experiement with adding a pre amp for my stereo gear, hoping that this will remove any nasties from the stereo stuff.

I agree though that unless your spending over £10k on a full AV system you will end up comprimising, I don't think there is any way around it, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try!

 

Chaps,

Please re-read my post.

I was using the Marantz AV amp as per your suggestion of the Yam E800. i.e. the Marantz takes a dig input, puts a stereo pre-out to my main stereo system, but powers the centre and rears.

The key point is that as I learn more about kit, my belief is that the analogue pre-amp in the Marantz (which deals with the volume control and bass/treble controls) is frankly just cheap and nasty.
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it would be better to:

- Take a dig out from my DVD player to a dedicated stereo DAC (e.g. meridian 203, which is pretty cheap)
- Output a straight stereo signal to my stereo signal

This completely avoids the rather nasty pre-amp section. I'm starting to think that I'd rather have high quality stereo movie playback than lower quality 5.1 channel sound. Just me I guess.

 

You could always get a much better AV processor plus a 3 channel power amp i.e. still run pre-outs into your stereo amp but give it a much better signal.

For example, buy a second hand Tag (mine's for sale - hint, hint) or Lexicon (some of the older DC units go for silly money now) processor and then add a 3 channel Arcam, Rotel or even Naim (NAPV175) power amp. This would give you much better quality through the three channels that are bothering you.

Just an idea anyway.

Matt.

 

mr s
i think you are using your kit the wrong way!!!
the cd player should be directly connected to your stereo preamp (or integrated) on the cd input. the av amp's front left and right line level outputs should be connected to the dedicated a/v input or a spare input on your preamp.
when you listen to cd's you select the cd input on your pre and when you watch tv or dvd's you select the 'a/v' or whatever input on your pre and use the av amp to select volume etc.
under no circumstances should your cd player be connected to your a/v amp at all, ever!
this way stereo stuff is handled by the quality hi-fi pre and tv / dvd is handled by the a/v amp and seeing as these are compressed formats anyway the quality of the a/v's volume is debatable in it's importance anyway.
cheers


julian

 

Matt,

You suggest an interesting idea, but think about this.
I guess the Tag will be maybe £1k and sh 175s are £850+. In addition, I get to sell off my av kit, hopefully netting another £400+. Finally, stops me wanting to replace my rears with another pair of kaber, a further saving of close on £500.

So altogether I save myself, approx £2700. Thats enough for a s/h CDX2, and a 202 pre-amp.

Bearing in mind my experience with an AV2, which was rated as being about as good as the Tag unit, to me that would infer that my existing 112 would probably have the edge in stereo, and that the 202 would give it a good mullering.


Julian,

My CD player is only connected directly to my stereo pre-amp.
My AV amp most certainly DID output via pre-outs to a unity gain input on the Naim pre-amp. So I can assure you that my kit was optimised from a connectivity point of view.

Ref your thoughts on the whether it's debatable ref the importance of the a/vs volume control.
Lets take the power amp and dac section out of the equation for a cheapy av amp. Now, please tell me just what the difference is between an AV2 and my Marantz SR4300. Chances are they even use similar DACs.
I'm sure we'll both acknowledge that the AV2 is rather special as av pre-amps go. The reason being that Naim clearly applied it's knowledge on how the pre-amp signal is handled, whereas for Marantz, this is where they saved a whole bunch of cash to allow them to build it for so little. How about we run a test of this whilst at your place in Feb?

Regardless of all that, I'm still pretty convinced that stereo is the right way to go.

 

It'll never catch on, mono's the way to go ;-)

On a related note, I gave away my huge old lump of a TV just before xmas and replaced it with a 17 inch LCD, and it's a tremendous improvement getting the old TV out from between the speakers, fills out the bottom end nicely.

Death to the CRT, I say. Anyone with a TV between their speakers should try removing it for a few days to see if they get a worthwhile improvement.

-- Ian

 

Ian,

Couldn't agree more, made a massive difference at my place.

Sounds like a good justification for a plasma to me (another way to spend the cash that I'm going to save by going stereo).

 

Sorry Mike but not for me, it's the only 5.1 dem I have ever witnessed that managed to empty the room. If you like the Naim sound for music, then stick with their two channel gear and use a Yammy or something. Sorry forgot you're already doing that.

So I guess the decision for you is whether you want to enjoy the carefully crafted 5.1 positioning of the foley artists in all their compressed glory for movies, or whether you want to lose all the creativity for a couple of channels of Naim.

I have no beef on the two channel stuff, but, speaking from experience, losing two thirds of the created soundstage on modern movies is a step too far. It's funny that Naim fanatics are all on about "involvement" when it comes to music. Fine, but there is NO substitute for multichannel when it comes to "involvement" with a good DVD IMO.

 

Michael,

Interesting that you mention involvement.
Just done the following test to confirm things either way:

This used U571, chptr 2 (start of the film).
Options being:
1. AV amp decoding the DD signal from my DVD player, then outputting to my stereo amp via pre-outs
2. DVD directly to the stereo amp using analogue outputs. Clearly this loses the centre/rears.

Losing the centre channel is fairly noticeable, but not horrible as users with "ghost" centre can vouch for. Whilst the vocals are not as forward, they're actually more natural.
Losing the rears is not that big a deal, not too bothered about that.
Using the internal DAC in the DVD player and the stereo amp completely beat the cr@p out of the sending the signal via my AV amp for decoding.
The sound via analogue was:
- Far more detailed
- Had MUCH better bass definition
- More natural
- Wider soundstage (surely a word I shouldn't be using as a Naim user)

I promise you that the difference was seriously big, and this was by REMOVING kit.

If you're using a budget level av processor/amp and a mid-priced or higher stereo amp, I'd suggest you test this yourselves to see the difference.
Lets be fair, this idea goes completely against all recommended thoughts on the subject, so I certainly don't expect to be popular for suggesting it.

Yes, I'm sure you can sort things out by throwing oodles of money at a high quality AV pre-amp. My question would be just how much better would the stereo capability be with that amount of dosh spent on it.

 

Hi guys,
as you know I have quite a decent stereo and I don't believe I should make it better for AV.
Since more than a year I am trying to plan to extend my stereo to an AV-system (let say at least two and two, not 5.1). Infact I have a spare pair of speakers, a spare preamplifier, amplifier and cables.
I went a few days ago to a dealer over here and he showed me the effects of the 5.1, that means subs in front and also a channel used mostly for voices.
My thoughts were to make out of the 5.1 a 4.0; the voices and the subs-channel directed to the front speakers. My subs are attached to that channel so I think I don't need anything "extra" while for the voices, I don't think it would mind to use them in stereo instead of in the centre.
Is there anyway to do such a thing without loosing much sound quality?

titian

 

Titian,

I used to run a 4.0 system and with sufficient bass capacity on the front channels (which of course you have) it can be most rewarding. IMHO, a centre channel is only strictly neccessary for off axis listening/watching.

With your current setup, simply put an AV processor into a spare input on your existing preamp, prefereably with a unity gain setting. Then tell the processor that you have large front speakers, no centre,no subwoofer, and small rears. In your case, you will need a processor with flexible bass management for the rears, the Meridians are the most flexible, but for sheer movie fun, the Lexicon is hard to beat. Are you looking at multichannel music? If so, your current setup would involve compromises that you may find unacceptable.

Setup in this way, the summed centre channel information will be sent to the front speakers, and the LFE and rear channel bass (not great) will be routed to the fronts, where your Nestarovic crossover will feed them to the dual subs. This will have no impact on two channel, unless you count the additional pair of satellites acting as passive radiators behind your head.

 

mr s,
sorry i guess i got the wrong end of the stick. also just ignore merlin he seems to have a problem with naim per se
i think the av2 uses the resistor ladder volume control from the nait / 112 and probably has very similar analogue output stages to the cd5 (the bit that comes after the dac and does the filtering and other mysterious bits and bobs). the actual decoding and dac stuff uses a pretty standard board but i'd say the major difference is in the power supplies and the fact you don;t have some hefty power amp psu's buzzing away next to your dacs etc.
as i've said before i'm a little dubious about spending loads for dvd-v quality sound which is limited to dd and dts compression (although there is an obscure 24/96 dts format that noone uses) it's like saying you want a 552 and active 500 dbl's to play low bitrate mp3's using a soundblaster on your old 486 pc - shut it merlin .
if you are seriously going for dvd-a (titter) or sacd then fine blow the budget but for movies just get the one that you can afford that shakes the room and whizzes things about fast enough.
i have absolutely no plans on updating my a/v system until blu-laser / hdtv arrive, the format wars have settled out and a new connection paradigm is settled on.
cheers


julian

 

No, I will be interested in only movies and ev. digital TV.

LFE = ?????, rear routed to the front? Why (4.0)?

Why not as a small table to put on the drinks?

So from the AV processor (Meridians / Lexicon) into the two preamplifiers?

 

Titian,

the software is encoded in 5.1 and this will be downconverted by the processor to suit your designated speaker array. The LFE (low frequency effects:JOEL: ) channel, in the absence of a dedicated subwoofer, will be fed to any speakers you designate as "large" (ie. full frequency)

As you have sub/sats at the front, these would be designated as "large" and the crossover will be handled, as in your two channel, by the Nestarovic.

As you will be using the Nestarovic satellites at the rear, it is best to steer any heavy bass away from them. In this way, all 5.1 channels will be fed to your 4.0 setup with little compromise.

No Titian,

you only need the one preamp for stereo duty, the Processor will handle these duties for all four channels when watching movies.

Just been sitting through LOTR in Dts with my baby JBL's working in tandem I beleive the neighbours have left the building