The Keyboard Music of Bach

easy listening partitas

RdS,

there seems to be an unwritten rule on these boards: the longer one's post is the fewer responses will come. Especially with ultra-thorough posts like yours, in which you appear to cover the entire territory (what are the Partitas like, and what are the current accounts on record) there is very little to be said.

All I can say at the moment is that the Partitas, contrary to what you said (?) do not sound like difficult pieces to me. I will not say they are easy listening, but to me they have always been more accessible than the WTC, which after all consists of (at least) 50% fuga.

Herman

 

Re: easy listening partitas

Now I didn't exactly mean they were difficult. They are not as easy to grasp as, for instance, the 4th or 5th French suites or the sarabande (the 'aria') of the Goldbergs.

Fugues are VERY interesting and can be rapturously beautiful. It is a difficult style of composition, because you must be aware of what actually happens: stretti, inversions, augmentations, diminutions.

I'll just mention one or two cases.

First, the intellectual beauty of counterpoint. Fugue in c minor of the WTCII. (I haven't got the score handy, so I'll be somewhat hazy in reference to the points of the music I mention). The theme is a strangely melancholy one - filled with nostalgia. After the first part, the theme appears in a stretto: the theme itself, the augmentation, and the inversion. It is as if the whole world has been grasped: the 'thing', its prototype (the augmentation) and its contrary (the inversion). From there a series of dramatic stretti go on to the conclusion.

Second, the a minor fugue, BWV 904: A very vocal theme, with dramatic pauses, as if they were questions, answered in repeated notes and a resolute final. The theme is strongly diatonic. It unfolds into a beautiful fugue; then a second theme appears, very chromatic, somber and descending; it has an associated counter theme. It is impressive, very expressive and anguished. Now the fugue is going ... where? you ask until the second theme combines masterfully with the first one, in a marvelous display of coincidentia oppositorum that somehow works harmonically and musically: one of the lesser known Bach fugues (mistakenly said to be for the organ because it is difficult to play, but there is really no pedal part). It is one of the fugues that have haunted me since my very early days.

Third the c# minor of the WTC: the theme is funereal - I played it to a friend some days ago and he said it was spooky music, horror movie like - very impressive; it develops and a countersubject appears, very singing but very sad , as if conformed to the loss. A third countersubject appears, this time an obstinate and forceful one. From all these different emotions, Bach builds one of the most dauntingly beautiful clavier pieces I have ever known. It all resolves in the end, and it is up to the interpreter to finish it tragically - you still try and don't get there - or romantically: you accept your fate.

All this is counterpoint, and yet it is very emotional music.

The difficulty with Bach fugue writing is that all emotions are just in the notes themselves, in the themes and countersubjects; it is the way they unfold (in all the voices and in terms of overall harmony) that is the significant bit.

I sometimes (I'll be honest: always) think that in two pages of counterpoint Bach manages to bring forth more different emotions and their combinations than a classical composer in 6 or seven pages of modulating melody plus chords.

If one just lets the music sink in, it will be wonderful. I listen to Bach fugues since my early youth, and I played a few. They never tire me.

Further, I don't think one needs to 'know' music to understand them. It is almost always sufficient to point out the main build up and release tension moments (and the themes) for a musical person, even quite ignorant of musical theory to like them.

Again, an enormous post; I guess it will receive precious little replies...

 

RDS - I have precious little to add, being both bereft of any musicianship and any listening experience with regard to these particular pieces (at the moment), but i just wanted to emphasise, that i do read your posts, and i find them both informative and interesting. Unfortunately this section of the forum is a bit low on personnel, so there are precious few available to communicate with you on this level.

Despite being a big Bach fan, i am a lot further down the investigative ladder than either yourelf or Tones for example, but at some juncture in the future, posts such as this will have much more relevance for me. Nevertheless, in the meantime, they provide superlative instruction.

 

Don't kid yourself, ol' bean! I am also totally bereft of musical knowledge - all I know is that J.S. reaches across 2 centuries and grabs me the way nobody else does, and I really don't understand why. There's just something satisfying about it. Perhaps the structures about which RdS writes so fluently speak to me, even though I don't recognise them for what they actually are. I have also encouraged RdS to continue, even though he's 'way above all the rest of us in this field. This is music for eternity and it should be documented and made as accessible as possible to a new audience.

And the litle cheap shop in Zürich station is selling Rilling cantata CDs at CHF5 (about £2.25) a pop. I'll be there tonight...

 

When, when, where, why?

About RdS postings, I find them simply super. They give me the incentive to hear the reordings I haven't heard for ages and to compare them. I understand it is absolutely frustrating when only one member anwers to his mails and I apologize for my behaviour. I am very absent here because I am busy in finding a solution in my analogue part of my system. This is going on since the beginning of this year and took away lot of time especially because I was going in the wrong direction. The only profit of this was to get more experience and knowhow but I'm not sure if it was worthfull. Well last weekend I took a decision and in a month time I am finished with experimenting. Another point was my work and my project that came live on the 10th of this month. The second phase terminates on the 12th of december and then I hope I will have less pressure from that side. Starting from next week I will take much more time in listening to music and put in some posting. My report of the 4th Beethoven is still pending...

I though keep telling myself that the lack of time shoudn't be an excuse for not posting since I think we all struggle against time.
. . but it is so easy to give it the fault and not myself.

 

When - right this very minute!

Where - Restseller, opposite the Migros general shop in the shopping area down at the entrances to Platforms 21-24

Why - who cares?

They are selling only three CDs of the old series (Vols 21, 26 and 58) and two of the remastered series (Vols 20 (BWV62-64) and 25 (BWV77-79)). Plenty of the older (green label) series, but relatively few of the newer (blue label) series. But you gotta beat me there, Titian... I think it's actually CHF5.95, so really CHF6, but a bargain, and there are many excellent performances in the Rilling series. Sometimes a bit "modern", but streets ahead of Karl Richter. To me, the tops of the cantata heap remain (in no particular order) Gardiner, Suzuki and Herreweghe - all constantly produce top-class performances. I know Herman will never forgive me, but I don't think Koopman is quite in the same class.

 

Why wouldn't I? I like some of Koopman's things a lot, but I'm not saying his is the only way. Plus I don't have any opinion whatsoever about the Cantatas and how they are done. As far as I can tell I don't own a single Cantata.

So shoot me.

RdS I love the c#minor prelude and fugue from WTC I. However I can listen to an entire partita - maybe even two - in one session, while I don't think I have ever listened to more than three WTC pieces at one go. I think they offer more meat per minute than the Partitas.

However, as I'm typing this I'm listening to a marvellous account of Schumann's Fantasie in C, by Sv. Richter, live in Budapest 1980, so I shouldn't be here in the first place!

Herman

 

Omigosh, Herman, not a single cantata? Not even BWV140 or 147? You don't need shooting, you need lots of TLC! However, by the sound of your mail, you're already in the middle of that.

 

There seems to be no 'embarrassed' smily, so I'll stick with this:



Well, thank you all. But now it seems I was fishing for compliments, which I honestly wasn't. All I meant really was to get some feedback...

And I am not really all that knowledgeable. It just happens that I spend most of my off work hours thinking about music (I dream about it, too). Really, all I can say on my behalf is that I thought long and hard about that kind of music.

I'll keep posting. Just put up with me.

About Bach's Cantatas, I know what Herman means. For a long time I just listened to the old Bach cantatas (Christ lag in Todesbanden, the Actus tragicus, Ich hatte viel Bekümmernis, which is a little more recent) and perhaps also Ich habe genug (and, oddly enough also to Vie schön leuchtet der Morgentern).

That is just because there are so many cantatas and if you try to apprehend all of them it seems an impossible task. Also, many cantatas of the Leipzig period are not very interesting.

But I agree with Tones, here: when they are good they are marvelous. And many, really most of them, are rather good. Let's just take an example: a friend of mine lent me a Herreweghe record, 'Cantates pour basse', with Peter Kooy.

Now I don't like Herreweghe. I listened to him live a couple of times (a messy Mass, and a very anemic Schütz's Geistlische Chormusik). Then another friend lent me the recorded version of the Bach Mass. It was soft, wooly, and I felt it was slightly nauseating.

I would never, ever, dream of buying this record. But, even if I still don't particularly like Herreweghe, the music is so beautiful that I feel I'll probably buy it. Not because of Herreweghe, but in spite of him.

It contains, of course, the Ich habe genug; but also the lesser known Ich will den Kreutzstab gerne tragen and Der Friede sei mit dir. (roughly translated: 'I've had enough' (and now I'm happily going to die and meet God); 'I would gladly bear the cross myself '(instead of Jesus) and 'May the peace be with you'.

I had never heard the last mentioned. But it is gorgeous, with a particularly beautiful counterpointy bit between the choir sopranos and the bass. I remember Koopman saying that, during the recording of the integral, he always found something really marvelous, even among the lesser loved cantatas.

So, it will repay to buy one or two records of Bach's cantatas. I'd recommend getting Suzuki's records. Like Koopman, he recorded the works in chronological order (quite independent of the BWV order), so one can choose the style one likes best.

 

Actually I got the Pinnock/Hanssler partitas a couple of weeks ago. I have now listened to them all a couple of times (although not with undivided attention). The first thing that struck me was actually the quality of the recording (well this is a hifi forum after all). I can only assume that it's been tarted up (added resonance), or it was recorded in a bathroom. The sound is incredibly huge and full-bodied. I've heard a couple of harpsichords in a concert hall - although I'm clearly not as familiar with the sound as RdS - and they never sounded anything like this. The bass in particular is incredibly powerful. For those to whom this may mean something, he plays a 1983 David Wey after Hemsch.

As for the playing - can't really say much (I have nothing with which to compare it) - other than that I really like it. It seems pretty 'right', flows pretty naturally and is reasonably lively when appropriate. Certainly no notes obviously out of place or awkward breaks in the rhythm - and no battering of the instrument that I so disliked when I heard Koopman play a few months ago. The first disc contains Nos 1,2 and 6 - and it was interesting that my ears pricked up immediately No 6 started, as it was quite obviously of a different cut, a true heaviweight after the middle- and cruiserweight contenders.

(Herman can stop reading now if he wishes ) In the 'Gramophone' review of the Suzuki, Freeman-Attwood felt that Suzuki "impresses more than exults". While Rousset had "directness and flamboyance", he went for a recording by Ketil Haugsand from 1994/5 for "sheer emotional range....character and quizzical-sounding spontaneity", with this Pinnock as a safer more mainstream choice.

Fugues: I've never ever found them to be difficult to approach. Actually I find they drag you in and along far more than the more strophic phrases of the dance-based forms and the well-delineated double bars scattered throughout most 'classical' structures. I've never actually sat down and analysed one, but the basic structures are pretty obvious. I think it's the way the theme keeps popping up in different guises in different voices and chasing its tail with no obvious pause for breath - a sort of musicological circular breathing trick. I'm normally quite disappointed when it ends (particularly "The Wedge" - which he could carry on for hours as far as I'm concerned). As of course it didn't die out with JSB. Last night I was playing Taneyev's cantata "John of Damascus" - which finishes off with a rather good one - and Alan Hovhannes shoved one - or a double, or even a few quadruples - in wherever he could. Admittedly though, both of these did sometimes end up being rather more academic than inspired.

And I was going to say I had no cantatas (we not JSB's anyway), until I remembered I've got the JEG Christmas Oratorio - so I suppose that counts as 6. Probably enough!

 

The ????th Ferengi Rule of Acquisition applies to Bach cantatas:

Enough....is never enough

 

I found the Archiv Partitas by Pinnock. The harpsichord is the same - David Jacques Way, 1983. The Archiv version is pretty well recorded. French harpsichords of the Paris area are indeed powerful and have an impressive bass: rich, lush and powerful; the treble is fluty and the midband somewhat between the two.

That said, the recording was obviously done in a very reverberant place (Clearwell Castle, Glos.). But the sound is credible. The playing is lively, there is little to criticize, but I also find little to get very excited about. And, of course, you get the triple time gigue; in fact the entire 6th partita could be rather more intense.

Concerning sound, I listened to the Podger/Pinnock sonatas and the harpsichord (which I suspect is the same) sounded too rounded indeed, with a kind of plodding bass.

There is currently a tendency to make the sound of harpsichords rounder and less bright. It may be done through voicing to a certain extent, but from your description I'd say the sound has been trampled with. That said, of course you cannot crank up the volume when listening to a harpsichord: the bass notes are 0,6 millimeters thick, so don't expect any big sound...

Koopman is getting more and more boisterous with age... He slaps and pounds the instrument in order to get dynamics (which he doesn't really get, because the instrument's dynamics are very restricted). I too, prefer a more 'Urtext' vision.

I know Ketil Haugsang from a quite different repertoire. I'll get his partitas if I can and will report later.

Actually, I find that most of the Bach fugues lead one into the end quite nicely; you actually know when the end is coming (well, not always: I always found the g# minor of the WTC II very boring because I cannot really grasp the structural logic (two themes, of course, and their combination, but apart from that?). 'The wedge' actually has a kind of circular structure, because the first part is actually repeated in the end, after all the crazy modulations and rhythmical eccentricities (mind you: one of Bach's very best! I'm not saying I don't like it: it is extremely difficult to play, though, and most people find it difficult to understand at first)

Yes, still has a long way to go. Counterpoint is the thing. Long live counterpoint!

 

Scuse me for making a tiny correction, but his name is spelled Ketil Haugsand This might help people who want to find out about him on the net.

 

Thank you for the correction - I must have mixed Haugsand and Hausgang; thank you for the limks. I ordered his partitas from Amazon yesterday. Let's see if they arrive at all.

 

Glenn Wilson's

I received Glenn Wilson's WTC some weeks ago. The records were issued as a part of the Bach 2000 Teldec edition, but can be bought separately and are rather cheap.

I wasn't expecting a great version, just a correct one. And I thought he played a Mietke copy (ahem… Herman) but he plays a Christian Zell copy (polar opposites, really).

Now, as I am pressed for work, I could only listen really carefully to his 1st book; the 2nd seemed OK, but this review is based chiefly on the 1st one.

My first impression was that he was primarily being fussy. The first fugue is rhythmically altered (he undots the f which makes the theme rather square) and there are further alterations throughout. Also, there are a lot of keyboard changes – I don't really object to them but it seemed a little overdone.

But then he plays a marvelous instrument – coppery and golden sounds – and seems to thrive on it. In fact he systematically makes use of a device invented by Leonhardt: he very often plays an interval (or a chord) as an arpeggio. That is, instead of playing, for instance, c+e he plays c, waits for a fraction of a second and then he adds e. This furthers the beauty of sound – quite unbelievable – but purists may find it overdone. My opinion is that it usually lets counterpoint through very clearly.

What about the interpretation in more global terms, then? Well, the WTC (the first book, at least) is a very open score. There are lots of rational choices, and the ones he takes are not necessarily the ones I prefer, but there is integrity and lots of PF come across extremely well.

Virtuosity is extreme – his technique is never (almost never) to be found at fault – and the result is very, very impressive overall. His taste is exquisite, his tension management quite convincing, the music flow is never monotonous (quite the contrary: it is very interesting) and, in general, this makes me take a very positive view of these records.

How does it fare in comparison with other versions?

Leonhardt's is more profound; Gilbert more balanced and uniformly convincing; Wilson is less simplistic than Asperen's and, while he doesn't have the rigid objectivity of Moroney's it is rather more convincing and accessible. Walcha is almost inhumanly cerebral and tense and is on quite another level of musicianship, so I'll not consider him. Wilson is more objective than Blandine Verlet, and less fanciful than Koopman, and more balanced than either of them but is still quite singing and expressive.

All in all a very good version, played in the most marvelous harpsichord imaginable and with the express intention of making it sound beautiful. Almost all pieces are convincing and I never, for once, said: 'Oh, no, for Heaven's sake, not this way!' Rather good then.

I'm a little pressed for time but if I have anything else to say I'll modify this post.

 

Well Tempered Clavier Kenneth Gilbert

RdS may term himself to be this club's crushing bore, but I am fascinated by his comments!

I started on the Well Tempered Clavier with Keith Jarrett's Book 1 on vinyl - I am also a big jazz fan, and an ardent admirer of Jarrett's works - but I never really got into the music, finding his approach a bit plodding and unemotional.

Recently I bought the Naxos Edwin Fischer (also on piano, of course), which I am enjoying much more (real beauty in there), but am beginning to pine for a decent modern piano recording, so was stimulated to read RdS's argument for this music on harpsichord.

Prompted by his recommendation for the Gilbert, a quick bit of web search showed the two Gilbert recordings available for about £10 each. But are these "Archive Blue" labels the same as the DG Archiv recordings, which costs over £50 for the 4 CD set?

 

These are probably just a budget repackaging of the same recordings.

This does show you, however, there's something to be said for the regular physical store, where you can check out the disc or ask the clerk.

Herman

 

Herman

You're right in some ways, but I'm not convinced that shops know their stuff, either.

For example, I bought a complete set (on the unknown to me Resonance label) of the Lindsay Beethoven String Quartets (complete) at HMV in Oxford Street (on special offer at £22) but the sales staff weren't sure that they were the same recordings available on ASV, which in the same shop at the same time cost over £34 for just a couple of CDs!

In fact the web revealed that they are indeed the same recordings and therefore a great bargain (Resonance is the new ASV budget label, I've now discovered).

Meanwhile, seeing your posts on the matter, do I go for another (modern) piano version of the WTC, or be swayed by RdS and get a harspichord version, where your recommendation is not the Gilbert!

I feel am entering a minefield!

 

Yeah, it's true. In a lot of really big stores the staff aren;t really very expert either. And in the smaller stores perhaps they are, but they don't stock what you're looking for.

I guess the real advantage of a physical store is you can actually look the material over; check the Production and Copryright dates to make sure what you're getting.

I don't think you're entering a minefield at all. Like RdS I'm in favor of harpsichord Bach; piano is either boring (Schiff) or bizarre (Gould). There's a kind of grandeur to a beautifully recorded harpsichord.

Whether you're getting the Gilbert or the Leonhardt (if it's still available) doesn't really matter, in that you'll be spending a lot of happy time with either recording. So go ahead.

Herman

 

Buying the Gilbert WTC

I've found the Gilbert WTC cheaply, at SplashDVD (£9.99, inc P&P):

http://www.splashdvd.com/splash/search.cfm?item_id=4742212&act=detail

and (with a completely wrong cover picture and track details, but the right catalogue number!):

http://www.splashdvd.com/splash/search.cfm?item_id=4745462&act=detail

Could this be yet another Christmas present to myself, I wonder?