The Linn LP12 Thread

Hopefully one with a difference.....

Forget the company and the politics, this is about the turntable.

The LP12 was king of the castle for many years in the UK and has probably outsold every other high-end domestic TT. We often see reference made to 'the' LP12 but of course the deck has evolved hugely since introduced in the 1970s.
I've always liked them and used a classic combination of rosewood LP12, black Ittok and Troika back in the late 80s and 90s. I remember that period particularly well since my decade or so of LP12 ownership coincided with the peak of my record buying.

So lets put the company and the politics to one side and discuss the LP12.

What's great about it?

What can be improved and how?

If you've modified it, how and why?

Perhaps you like the TT but not the arms or cartridges, so what alternatives do you use?

Which vintage LP12 do you prefer?

Any trade members with product designed to improve the deck, please share your thoughts.

 

I think I've only heard one LP12, that was Paul Messengers which I think was quite modified. Sounded good though!

 

He runs a Rega RB1000 on it.

This is very quiet for a Linn thread!

 

Sorry - am really busy - will write something later.

Yes, PM uses a Rega RB1000 and also a Rega motor. He has requested a Rega RubiKon - so I better get on with finishing that.

 

I bought my LP12 in 1983 with a Valhalla, Basik LVX and Rega R100. Over the years I had it upgraded to Cirkus, Lingo 2, Ittok LVIII, ESC'd Troika.

With the Ittok and Troika it's a good sounding tt. Pleasant sounding is the best way to describe it.

When I bought it I compared it to a Rega Planar 3. Big preference for the LP12 due to the Rega sounding undynamic. I also compared it to a Pink Triangle. There wasn't much between them.

In 2008 I was faced with the following Linn upgrade choices:

Akiva for £1500 new (due to the Troika having some trade-in value) or £800 2nd hand
Ekos for £1400 new (Ittok worth £400) or £600 2nd hand or Ekos SE for £3200
Radikal for £2000 (£2500 minus £500 for the Lingo)
Keel for £2350
Trampolin for £225
Ulrika for £2000 (£2500 less £500 for my EAR 834p)

Before spending such significant amounts of money I decided to compare it against the competition. The competition in todays global eBay world, where a host of 2nd hand kit is available at the click of a few buttons.

I found that there were several record players that sounded – swings and roundabouts – at least as good as my LP12 and which cost less than the 2nd hand value of my turntable. TT's like the Lenco, Garrard 301, 401, Pioneer PL71, Technics SP10, Technics 1210.

And there were several record players that cost a little bit more than my LP12 that sounded significantly better than my LP12, including the EMT 948, 950, 930.

There are lots of other LP12 beating candidates. Just about every Japanese brand had a statement tt in the 1970's and 1980's. Some of these have a fantastic reputation and command good prices eg Pioneer Exclusives for £4000. Some of them are less well known, such as the Sansui SR 929 and may well be bargains for the canny buyer.

The main sonic weakness of my LP12 for the sort of rock and pop music that I listen to is the somewhat woolly bass. For someone with small 2 way speakers this weakness will not be as significant as they will to someone with proper sized unported 3 way speakers and ss amplification for the bass.

I've heard a near SE spec LP12. This was a really good sounding tt. However it still had some woollines in the bass. For me this is unforgivable in a £10k record player when listening to rock and pop. That's about half the band it's not playing properly: the bass guitarist and drummer / drum machine.

I'd like to do a bake-off to compare an LP12 SE directly against my EMT 950 to see how they compare in the midrange and treble to see if the EMT is at least as good in these areas. So far no LP12 SE owners have come forward to accept my challenge.


In todays world I can not recommend the LP12 at any price point.

A £400 bottom spec LP12 will not sound as good as the equivalently priced competition.

A £1500 mid-spec LP12 such as mine will not sound good as the equivalently priced competition.

And why spend £2000 to £14000 upgrading your LP12 towards SE spec when £2000 could buy you a turntable that sounds just as good, if not better?

Anyone buying a new Majik LP12 for £2000 is either seriously ignorant or mis-informed when it comes to hi-fi. Too much money for not enough performance.


The LP12. A good turntable. But you can find better elsewhere.

 

Not surprisingly, I disagree with practically everything written above.

 

Would you care to say what you disagree with specifically, and why?

 

Lindsay, what cartridge do you use with the EMT? When I heard it at the Mr. Dunn bake-off show I thought it sounded quite hard and fatiguing. Not offence intended, just my opinion. I wonder if this is the cart or the TT. In my completely limited experience I prefer Paul Messengers LP12, but it did have a very expensive cartridge... it had LEDs on it?.

 

I think PM uses a Soundsmith:

£6k - <gulp>

 

Yes, PM does use a Soundsmith - definately.
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The only bit I really agree with is that the LP12 used to be a rather warmly balanced turntable(oh, and that the Rega 3 is less dynamic). Although it had good bones I would say that it was not as defined as it could be. However, definitively describing the sound of the LP12 is difficult as it has gone through so many changes and many of these changes have made quite a significant difference to the way it sounds. It has certainly become a more incisive and leaner sounding unit at it has developed.

The last LP12 I listened to in detail was Andrew's - fitted with his new Aro, RadiKal, ESCo Troika and RubiKon chassis. This was one of the most focussed and finely detailed front ends I have ever heard and genuinely surprised me. It certainly did not have any bass overhang and nor did the Aro sound rolled off in any way.

Personally, I prefer late/current model LP12's - certainly post Cirkus- preferably as Andrew's is configured (which sounds quite different to the dated, warm, opaque sounding units of the past.

 

Lindsay, just how would someone compare their LP12 to your EMT. You can't use the same arms and using the same phono-stage is unlikely. Wouldn't it be more a case of trying the Linn vinyl front end vs your entire vinyl front end?

Still an interesting proposition, but I doubt you'll find many people willing to pack up £15k worth of Linn front end just to hear it against your front end, most of them probably aren't interested in the comparison. That you have found a sound that you prefer to the LP12 is great, I doubt m/any other LP12 owners share your opinion.

If the sound you produced at Scalford is representative of the breed then i can't say I was taken by it, though I'd guess the room was far less than optimum.

 

I use EMT TSD 15 SFL and SPH cartridges with my EMT TT's.

At the Richard Dunn bake-off show, when we compared the EMT 950 against the Garrard / Rega / Decca / Musical Fidelity combination, the EMT sounded better.

I don't think that the EMT 950 sounds hard and fatiguing. I would say that the EV Sentry speakers that we used at the Richard Dunn bake-off can sound more fatiguing than my Bozak Symphony speakers. The EV's can also sound more fatiguing with ss amps instead of the SET amps that I usually use with them.

However one man's hard or coloured is another man's dynamic and colourful.

 

Well let's have a bake-off of this focussed and finely detailed £6k front-end against my useless sounding £2.25k front end and we'll see what's what. Preferably using an amp and speaker combination that's capable of good bass.

 

You'd be comparing £2.25k's worth of EMT tt arm cartridge and phono amplification against £14k's worth of Linn tt arm cartridge phono amplification. It would be about the relative merits of each vinyl playing system.

From the LP12 owner's point of view they're on a hiding to nothing. If the LP12 SE sounds better then it's a subjective judgement as to whether it's worth the extra money or not. If they sound about as good as each other with one being better than the other in some areas and worse in others then the EMT is the winner as it's much cheaper. If the EMT sounds better overall then that would make it a very clear winner.



And this is not just about the LP12 vs the EMT. It's about the LP12 vs tt's from over a dozen different manufacturers. There are lots and lots of LP12 beating candidates out there.

How many current LP12 owners have ever actually compared their tt's against a decent direct or idler drive turntable? My recommendation is that more LP12 owners should try this so that they can at least make a more informed decision on whether to stick with their LP12 or upgrade it or replace it with something different.

 

I'm not interested - you clearly believe that your EMT's lay waste to all other and indeed seem to have become something of a zealot on the matter. Note that I don't post on every turntable thread how much better an LP12 would be than choice X or Y (but it seems that you like to promote your choice of turntable is such a manner). To be honest, my focus is on getting the best from that which I am working with (the LP12), not on proving some point of order, or waging a war against other turntables (even yours) - I am not interested in 'what's the absolute best' because this is a fiction that only exists in the ears/ego of the owner. I am already quite happy that I know 'what's what' (as you put it) and I am sorry to say that I am entirely unconvinced by your ability to remain objective on the matter. In conclusion, I am pleased (for you) that you have found your ideal turntable - however, it is far from being my own ideal.

I haven't described your front end as 'useless' (your words, not mine) - in fact, I haven't described it at all (though I notice you do like to compare your new prices directly to your second hand prices - hardly fair or relevant) . When I heard one of your EMT turntables at Andrew's bakeoff I thought it sounded good (though it looked like it had been rescued from a skip). However, the EMT based system at Scalford didn't impress me at all - I certainly didn't feel I was in the presence of an amp and speaker combination that could do 'good bass' - quite the opposite in fact.

I have heard a number of the DD and idler turntables you seem to hold in such high regard - so far I remain either unimpressed or ambivalent.
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No doubt you will be writing this up on 'another' forum under the title 'ZeroGain Nonsense', or similar (as you have done previously) - very poor form IMHO.

 

i still have a old LP12, they never runned at correct revolutions but that is the way there were designed, but i modified the motors and also a/c current supply and springs suspension, lovely,

 

Worth pointing out that were the EMT produced today it would cost considerably more than £6k.

The two i've heard both had superb bass - really taught and extended with that real sense of foundation, but that is the only region where they are better than a good Linn IMO.
These are pro decks designed for heavy daily use and this shows in the noise performance. You can clearly hear the drive systems in operation and they sound pretty rough up top compared to a good modern TT and cartridge.

I like all vintages of LP12 but you have to accept that they all sound pretty different.
My first real experience was an early red button Linn with Syrinx PU2 and Karat Ruby owned by Chris Frankland.
Chris used to visit a neighbour and the chap ended up with Chris' LP12. A very unusual system completed with a Naim NAC12/NAP120 in to Lowther Classic 400s.
I used to visit often and really enjoyed that system.

I bought my own in the mid 80s when given some cash as a 21st birthday present. It followed a string of decks including Ariiston, Logic and Dunlop machines and I ended up keeping it for ten years.
Never got on with the the Linn cartridges so tended to use ATs and a wonderful Decca Super Gold. In those days the cartridges were still built by Decca Special Products and carried a VDH stylus. Beware - current SGs aren't and don't.

I then went off on a Michell spree and thoroughly enjoyed a Gyro/SMEIV for many years which sounded very different but was equally enjoyable.
As digital started to take over as my main source I wanted a vinyl front end with as few additives as possible and after trying a couple of big DDs settled on the current P9.

Would I use an LP12 today?
Absolutely, yes.
They are still an excellent front end and of course the tuning possibilities are far greater than in my Linn days.

 

On old LP12's (and all before the RadiKal), you adjust the speed of the platter by using the two adjustment screws that press against the motor. This causes the tilt of the motor to be altered (rather a crude - but effective - solution in my opinion). As the tilt is adjusted, the drive belt runs on a differing part of the drive pulley - effectively adjusting its diameter and hence the speed.

There is no reason why even an old LP12 should not be adjusted to the correct speed (a strobe is required and Linn can supply dealers with a very accurate one).

 

Lindsay.

My amps and speaker are capable of producing superb bass as those who attend my bake off will find out. Unfortunately your current posting style and the 'two decks see red' deception means I am not interested in comparing my deck to yours, you'll prefer the EMT on principal anyway.

 

Lindsay,

I didn't think the speakers sounded too bad at all. When we played a digital source the sound was really quite good. Just when the EMT deck went on it sounded quite hard to me. As you say, maybe this is dynamic to you.

Have you tried your deck with another phono stage? IIRC the one you used at the bake-off show was one of those cards in the chassis below the deck?

I think you are right though, there are many other decks that can make a good sound other than the LP12 and the new prices are rather high!