The most overrated kit?

if you believe the gossip, by all accounts he was involved for only a day or so working on the design. Shame he didnt get involved in the implementation as well.

 

But the Wolfson equipped players are more expensive than the RingDAC players were

 

and it's being used in an 'off the shelf' manner by tube technology in their god awful cd64.

i still quite like the dac 64 though.
cheers


julian

 

Robbo and merlin - Rob Watts was massively involved in the design and implementation of the Chord DAC64. Also, some of the earlier DPA DACs followed a very similar design. Chord didn't license the technology from Rob Watts, he was working directly for Chord.

Unfortunately Rob Watts is, like many brilliant engineers, not so hot at running a business and it's a shame that his greatest success (the DAC64) came out of him working for someone else.

I'm not sure what the story with the TubeTech CD64 is. When I spoke to them (I spoke to the owner of the company, always nice when that happens) they said that they had been working with Rob Watts for a while when he got a better offer from Chord or something like that.

I don't know how "the same" as the DAC64 it really is. It certainly doesn't use any RAM buffering like the DAC64 and that is really one of it's great strenghts. Turn off the RAM buffering and the DAC64 becomes merely good instead of a world beater.

Michael.

 

Your wasted in banking my boy, your comedic talents are ever improving, you'll be doing stand up next.
I believe MR watts was paid for 2 days work by Mr Franks outfit for his work on the World beater

 

michael,
tube technology has 2 versions.
the cd64 which is the integrated cd player where the transport is much more closely linked to the dac and therefore *shouldn't* need the buffer as much. afaik the actual dac and filters are exactly the same as in the dac64 but with a tube output stage.
the other version is the fulcrum dac which as far as i can tell from the documentation i picked up at bristol is a dac 64, complete with ram buffer, dac and filters but with a tube output stage.

i must say i was hoping to have my cake and eat it too with the cd64, as i quite liked the sound of the dac 64 when i've heard it but unfortunately there is just something wrong with the thing. this leads me to believe that whoever mentioned the importance of implimentation, psu's, etc. is perhaps on to something.
cheers



julian

 

Actually Mike, I still own a dpa dac which uses an earlier version of the pulse array technology used in the DAC 64. IMO it sounds better than the DAC64 as it has been implemented by Rob Watts using his surface mount circuits and hybrid op amps, outboard multiple regulated power supplies etc. The only reason I dont use it now is that its faulty.

If the DAC64 used this kind of implementation, it would be stunning. Unfortunately, the DAC64 is mainly Chord's implementation which is why it doesnt have all the assosiated Rob Watts goodies. A missed opportunity.

I was in contact with one of the guys at dpa when he was doing stuff with Chord and allegedly Rob Watts was highly critical of the way Chord did things.

I had set my heart on a DAC64 to relpace my dpa dac. Once I had heard one, I knew that I had to look elsewhere for a replacement as there was no way I could live with it which was a real shame.

I agree, I met him at dpa. Nice guy though.

 

Julian - I heard the Fulcrum DAC64 from TubeTech at last year's Heathrow and thought it was pretty good, as much as you can tell anything from a show listening session. Haven't heard the CD64 though but it's had some good reviews (including HiFi+ I think).

Robbo - I'm sure that Rob Watts didn't agree with everything that Chord did but I know he's pretty pleased with the DAC64. Once of the local HiFi journos here (who also owns a DAC64) knows him quite well and has chatted to him at length about the DAC64 and he was still full of enthusiam about it's design etc.

For some reason, there seems to be an anti-DAC64 sentiment on this forum - I still say it's the best digital source I've ever heard. Yes, WM, that includes your tricked out Wadias :devil: . Clearly, not everyone has the same taste though or we'd all buy the same kit. Anyway, I'm not going to labour the point anymore. There's really not much merit in a "my kit's better than your's 'debate' "

Michael.

 

michael,
i haven't heard the fulcrum dac but did hear the cd64 in the corridoor at bristol and made the decision there to listen to it under better circumstances. i then listened to it at a hi-fi dealer in st albans and unfortunately it only impressed me in it's awfulness.

the dac 64's i've heard have been slightly on the hard side but they are no way as bad as things like the shanling or various other cdp's i've heard. certainly they are very good but i'm not sure i could say that they are *the best* with your conviction.

still opinions vary and that's what makes this hobby so much fun.
cheers


julian

 

Disclaimer: the following statement is not directed to any one in particular... :NADowner:

It is obvious we buy our kit because we like it, but we always end up arguing that ours is better then the next guy's, then you visit the guy and he has crap sound, (not referring to any one from this forum)...

But still they claim their kit is much better then ours... :bs:

 

Michael,

If you heard the Fulcrum DAC64 at a hifi show (of all places), how can you isolate the Fulcrum as being being "pretty good" when it was playing in a system with which you were unfamiliar (or were you familiar with that system?) Unless there was a direct comparison between the Fulcrum and another source, it would be very difficult to say how good the Fulcrum was would it not? Perhaps the system as a whole sounded "pretty good" but I find it hard to understand how one is able to isolate a particular product as being a "star" in an unfamiliar system or with unfamilar products. Maybe, the amplifiers had something to do with it or maybe the speakers?

The Fusion CD64 is a good-ish sounding one-box player that could sound a lot better than it does if only the manufacturers paid more attention to detail and improved their quality control procedures. It's transport mechanism & power supply section could also use a good makeover - something which appears lost on the manufacturers. I know one top London dealer who used to do the line but dropped it due to quality control problems as customers kept returning their units for repairs. It's a shame that in these difficult times, especially for audio manufacturers, that many of them still don't know what excellent quality control means and are still churning out sub-standard products for a gullible public to buy.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

You're right Lawrie about hearing stuff at a show. Of course, I couldn't isolate the Fulcrum DAC from the rest of the system (which was not familar to me and I can't even remember what it was). So, more correctly, I should say that I liked the sound in the Tube Tech room

Michael.

 

Would you have liked it if you were unaware of the Rob Watts association?

 

Yes - and I did. When I first heard one (in my system) I didn't know that it was a Rob Watts design but that didn't stop it from being "love at first listen" . Why should knowing it's a Rob Watts design affect my view of what it sounds like?

Michael.

 

I could have sworn you were with us at the show. And that we had discussed the Chord/TT setup whilst walking down the corridor.

Still, I might be getting confused, but if youi subconsiously knew that there was a connection, you would have been influenced prior to listening surely, given DBT criteria?

 

I'm sure dCS has been mentioned but can I mention it again. Fiendishly expensive rubbish whenever I've heard it.

 

I might be getting confused here. Are you talking about me liking the TubeTech Fulcrum DAC64 or the Chord DAC64?

As Lawrie correctly pointed out, it wasn't really possible to make any really objective comment about the TubeTech gear other than that I thought the room sounded good. I knew about the DAC64 connection at the time.

The DAC64 OTOH I heard for the first time in my own system (one I imported to Portugal for a friend) and I loved it - so much so that I bought one myself . Don't remember if at the time I knew of Rob Watts' involvement but TBH I can't see why anyone would think that would affect my opinion of it

Michael.

 

I liked the dac 64, a bit over hyped, an excellent cd item, again, like audionotes zero oversampling, it seems to be SO overhyped that you get one and think, well yes it is better, but not by THAT much. Qvortrop reckons 0 o/s absoultely blows away everything, sacd, you name it, it doesn't, its hardly any different. you are talking maybe 5 marks out of 100 to quantify it.

I had heard the dac64 was not quite what Rob WAtts wanted it to be, he wanted to do more, but Chord 'owned' the project.

rob Watts should be given total free reign, he is a true unique, and I mourn the loss of DPA. come back Rob WAtts. I do suspect the pdm 1 and 2 are superb.

I think watts just did the digital design/program filter for the eprom. Most of the rest is chords AFAIK. This is not my area so I don't really know.

I am not anti dac64 myself, it just has a huge voltage output that makes things beside sound insipid and weak, when you reduce the vol, it is less instantly impressive. I loved it too when I first heard it, but in comparison to a naim cdi it was slightly more mechanical. The naim was music.

Glad I am not the only one who finds a michell TT boring.Thought there was something wrong with me. But it was dull.

 

As I said earlier, ALL CD players are overrated, so it isn't just the DAC64 I'm on about to be fair Michael. I'm sorry but I just can't get that excited about Dacs.

I was listening to the Denon 2900 last night and, with decent amp and speakers, it's not THAT far behind and is as listenable as CD generally gets. Next step (and yes I accept there is another level) is upwards of £5K. No thank you.

The Chord is one of a dozen or so products that offer decent sound at a mid to budget price, but it does amuse me when people claim it is something more.

FWIW, if we are talking about overrated, how about the trusty LP12, Naim amps, ATC actives and of course Angle Iron

 

Are you getting desperate for a 'rise'?



Agree about CDPs in general, btw.