The Real Kick Out Of Sound...

As I said Rob, distortion can sound quite nice

Are you ready to discuss 16% THD being hi-fi yet?

 

and still able to fall back on euphony....can't be bad


THD+N Test Results :

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/427-a-secrets-technical-article.html?start=1

 

Perhaps you're getting confused with the last time you were there - you know,that big wall 'n' everything



Have you tried comapring 16% -v- 0.016% yet?

 

quote

hi rob, we both know that total harmonic distortion is as mucth as important as the individual human thd, i.e. body fqqz. and difference or preferance of harmoniics, either on audio or noises created by other sounds, i.e. planes, motorbikes, etc, we all react to thd's i think that masurements are irrevelent to the ear it is a matter of a fulcrom of sound preerence to each and every indiviual, THD exist no matter how high or low, coluaration is none avoidlable, regardless of how and what, in the end it i s a preferance to the indiviual to choose what they prefer, pleasure is thd in the human form,
regards,
nando.

 

p.s. rob, if you can remenber SANSUI had a very interesting but old desing based on push pull only to be done via transcistors and called it negative feedback
nando.

 

I do think there's some truth in the idea that it's a perceptual, not a technical issue; for example take a look at the recent work Earl Geddes has done on the relative unimportance of THD% in perception of speaker quality.

It's still one of those issues where we are measuring the wrong things to describe how we may perceive 'quality'. THD% tends to be a discrete-time measurement, a method which our hearing does not reflect; human hearing is a system that takes subsequent developments into account, cued by the initial transient (Google 'Haas integration time'). That's an effect of the profound software (wetware) filtering the ear/brain system uses, and which we just don't understand the full complexity of. For example, the ear mechanism itself is a lousy transducer, running out past 30%THD at modest levels, even physically emitting its own tones; but humans can still resolve 140dB of dynamic range, the difference between distortion spectra for the same nominal %thd, and even 1-3 microsecond delays between channels, equiv. to angular direction-finding with resolution better than 5degrees. Useful stuff for the primitive savannah hunter we once were... But being a higher function in the brain, it is also profoundly, demonstrably influenced by our other sensory inputs and (fugitive) memory - lots of cross-talk

Cheers
M.

 

quote

i agree with you to a certain point, but let us not forget that the humam body organs do work on harmonic fqz , the most afected are kidneys as they are affected to fqz of 18 hz , harmony is as i think i say as i think is a very romance to the kind of sound that you are confortable and aura that you have reached a point "persoanally" that no longer pass the line of your own harmony, my guess,
nando.

 

how about open buffle or quater wave , pending on room acoustics? not everyone has a perfect room at home if they are lucky enough to have a compromise or be reach enough to please the mrs, then good but where i think we are going wrong in this industry is that we are forgetting the young let's say as an example beteen age of 17 to what ever that audio is not about specs but merelly about personal enjoyment and affordable,
nando.

 

Cracks and pops - are they 2nd,3rd or 4th order harmonics?

 

THD, which I accept benefits from a thorough drill-down, can be difficult to detect in isolation but becomes perfectly audible when you compare something with high levels, say 16% in the case of the cartridge, with something running at around 0.1% - even if the latter is comprised solely of the nastier harmonics.

Speakers are a great example actually. Many have high distortion yet sound fine in isolation, yet these distortions become very obvious when you compare to a much cleaner driver such as a good electrostatic.

However, getting back to vinyl we have:

- Motor/electrical noise
- Speed instability
- Acoustic feedback
- Double digit cartridge THD - (from the best!)
- Response variability - both intrinsic errors in the cartridge and often the RIAA stage but also scanning loss which progressively rolls down HF across the LP side.
- Distortions introduced by errors with arm geometry.
- VTA errors introducing errors on L/R images.
- High noise floor.
- TT and arm resonances - the cartridge is effectively operating while bolted to a complex resonator.
- Wear variability - more plays = more more noise and reduced HF
- Chanel separation which hovers around 30db at best, and collapses entirely as you approach tip mass resonance.

Am I selling this pinnacle of audio faithfulness to anyone yet?

All vinyl front ends suffer from the above with of course a different mix for each case. However many of them transcend the ultimate quality of the front end as they are fixed limitations of the mechanical process.

Given that list its a wonder vinyl sounds as good as it often does - and it does, I use it and enjoy it. But please people, don't pretend that it competes with clean, modern digital if faithfulness is your aim.

 

Vinyl v CD

Sorry if this is a ZG member, but it had me chuckling

He needs to be a bit clearer though as i got confused as to which racks contained CDs and which contained the bigger round things


Enjoy this 'proper' £15k system

 

that is funny, did he try to play a cd on his orbe?
nando.

 

I agree with Rob Holt's comments (today 15.14) and whilst I acknowledge that vinyl can be a fantastic experience there are too many practical downsides for me.

I can listen to a CD in a darkened room for c.45 minutes and then change the CD within 15 seconds without disturbing that experience.

With vinyl its half that uninterupted listening time, changing is not so easy and takes a fair bit longer and, for me, vinyl source based wear/cleanliness issues too often unexpectedly spoil the audio illusion one is trying to create.

 

I'd rather listen to 'Walk on the Wild Side' on his strangely wobbly Jean Michel Jarre turntable, than whatever the hell that other piece of so called music was on his CD player!

Maybe I'm just grumpy because I feel sick, but why on earth does he think anyone is interested in looking at his hi-fi on YouTube?

 

How dare you mock my hifi?

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1443918726

 

Not related to this thread topic, but related to your above post Tenson, yea I think so too, I found many vids of people's hi-fi rigs on YouTube and wonder what good is there in doing so; Fair enough it's nice to look at, but we obviously cannot listen to how great it actually is!

 

I think the fact that the system cost figures so prominently gives the game away.
'Look at my £15000 system' is just willy waving.

One of the reasons I posted the clip was that the guy chose to demonstrate the superiority of vinyl over CD by using two completely different pieces of music! - which makes it relevant to our discussion.

 

so why is it with all these 'faults' vinyl has that it still manages to completely DESTROY CD?

Just back from Berlin listening to the new Amazon Reference/ Morch/ A-90 compared to a Burmester CD01...

The CD01 could not even keep up with vinyl in stage width, depth, instrument resolution and resolution across the whole bandwidth. The high frequency of vinyl went higher (probably due to the crappy hf response of CD - just 20Khz) the bass deeper and more accurate and detailed.

It's very obvious the Robholt has not heard good vinyl played against high-end CD. Just by the way you bring to the table silly old facts which were relevant to the old PL12D like motor noise.
This is definitely from someone that as not done the comparison.
I did and still think that CD is boll**ks compared to vinyl.
What you need to do Rob it take time out to listen with your own ears and forget what the book says and also don't worry if you come out wrong....it's OK.

 

Rob you are just making yourself sound foolish.

 

As with nearly everything else it comes down to personal preference. I don't think anyone will convince Rob (Holt) that all CDs are shite. I don't think that RobM is going to accept that a decent CD system isn't a complete waste of time.

I started with CD and swiftly moved on to vinyl as funds allowed.

In my experience it's harder to get a decent sound with vinyl than with CD, and the noise levels are undoubtedly higher too. However, whatever it is, I have preferred the sound of my TT for some time now. I think it was the Denon DL304 that first had that effect for me a few years ago.

Compared to vinyl I find CDs harsh, in a way I don't find with live music. I know that may well be down to the mastering but on a couple of identical (AFAIK) LP / CD masterings I still notice it. I find the bass on my TT setup is more realistic and has greater impact.

However, I think a large part of this is the fact that my TT, Arm and Cart are just plan better than my CD player, perhaps a better CD player would beat the TT?

Another factor is that I like some distortion and am comfortable with that. For instance, I certainly think I like my music rolled off a bit becuase I do appear to think that some systems / music sounds harsh and direct when others don't notice it, or like it.

If you hate all vinyl, then you need to hear a better record deck. If you think all material on CD is flawed then you need to get a better record deck, er I mean a better CD player.