Thinking of going valve

Hi, I'm new to the forum and wonder if I could trouble you for a little advice. Sorry if I'm treading old ground.

I'm thinking of upgrading my old Audiolab 8000A and I'm seriously thinking about going the "valve" route. Given that my budget will only be up to, say £700 I would probably be looking at a chinese import e.g. Ming Da. This means, though that I would probably have to buy the amp without listening first, so I'd appreciate any views on (i) would this be a significant improvement (ii) what will the amp actually sound like compared to the Audiolab. I am a bit concerned that that the valve amp may be a bit "slow" especially the bass (iii) will the valve amp take a lot of maintenance (iv) any alternative suggestions?

Current system Arcam CD73, Audiolab 8000A, MissionCyrus 780SE (speakers next to upgrade).

Thanks
Mike

 

I am sure others wil be along to post their thoughts but with £700 you could get a really good valve amp especially second hand. Pound for pound, valves are better value for money IMHO. For your budget you could try getting one from Icon Audio which is basically a Ming Da but tweaked here in the UK. You therefore get the UK service support.

Valve amps do not need any maintainence at all. Once it is setup and properly biased you can just leave it. The only care is with the tubes which have a finite life. About 10000 hours for pre-amp valves and 3000 hours for the power valves. You therefore should not leave it on 24/7 (better for the enviroment anyways). Also some people argue that you should not switch the amp on and off repeatedly over a short space of time as this shortens tube life as well.

I am not familiar with your setup and don't know how sensitive your speakers are. Bear in mind you'll probably only get 20W output from your valves and must therefore partner the speakers properky.

With all that in mind, I think valves are very satisfying and I for one would not go back to SS. Having said all that, at the end of the day you should demo before buying ideally.

JJ

 

have a look here -

http://www.emporiumhifi.com/Pages/ModernPages/ValveM.html

you also have the likes of

world audio design
copland
unison research

when you look second hand.

if you only have one source you could also look at getting a power amp and having a volume pot fitted to it -

that would add the likes of audio innovations power amps to the mix

 

I would agree with jonjins recommendation of the Icon Audio amps.

I bought an Icon Audio Stereo 40SE (EL34 power valve version) for £699 from their Leicester headquarters. www.iconaudio.co.uk

The amp uses the same casework as a Ming Da but the circuits are designed by the Icon team in Leicester. They have them built in China to their specs.

The amp itself has 2 modes; 40w ultralinear, where the power valves are used as pentodes and a 20w triode mode where the valves are of course used as triodes.

It weighs 14Kg, has immaculate build quality, a polished stainless steel chassis and has a great looking slatted perspex and polished stainless steel cage over the valves. All in all a nice package that gives real pride of ownership.

I have been through that whole ,"Linn /Naim spike everything including your listening chair, tighten your cartridge bolts till your temples bulge. single speaker dem room, banish that telephone, short out those LEDs, scratch your mains plugs and pin up the corner of your curtains" scene in the course of my 30 year audio journey, have spent untold amounts of money and have never really been satisfied.

Until now that is.

My wife and I sit there, often into the wee small hours, with just the firelight, and the glow from the valves for company marvelling at how brilliant everything sounds, from the wall to wall stereo, the depth that seems to go on forever, the huge sound stage populated at last after all these years with real musicians playing real instruments in a real acoustic space and we still can't believe it.

It plays '60s '70s and Northern soul with an ease and unforced naturalness that is something quite new and marvellous to me.

Jazz has an easy fluidity and swings along beautifully. Acoustic bass has real presence, standing there solid and deep. Cymbals shimmer and decay naturally with no fizz or nasty scratching noises and sax and piano have a sonorous quality that can have you believing they are in the room with you.

Best of all with the type of music I love is that you get a real sense that there are human beings behind those instruments. Chairs creak, people count each other in, make asides during a performance etc. And wonder of wonders I've even started to appreciate classical music (steady now)

I'm not claiming that these qualities are not available from solid state but I have never reached that point, despite owning at least a dozen transistor amps over the years. Yet I've hit that magic at the first attempt vith valves.

Icon are a great company to deal with, run by people who really care about what they do.

Be prepared for a culture shock however. A valve amp will in no way sound like your Audiolab.

Having said that I think you will be very pleasantly surprised by the sound of a decent valve amp. A good one does not suffer from slowness in the bass.
Listening fatigue becomes a thing of the past and you will find it very hard to listen to a solid state amp after living with valves for a while.

Good luck.

 

Bass is anything but slow. The surprising thing I found is how tuneful the bass is. Forget any pre-conceived ideas about lush sounds and smooth valve tones, modern valves can be fast, accurate and very musical. It's easy to differentiate between the types of cymbals, acoustic guitar was for me a revelation and the bass line is easy to follow and for want of an audiophool word, musical. Did I say it is musical?

My amp is currently 50W PP UL connected. I've tried it triode connected but I need the extra power to drive my magneplanar MMG's. I built mine from a kit, I've now got the valve bug and am looking to build an amp from scratch to match exactly what I want. If you can wield a soldering iron and follow instruction you can build a 40W kit for around £350 ish. http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_ella.htm Good support from the forum is a bonus.

Maintenance is restricted to checking the bias a couple of times a year and replacing the valves when needed, (5years ish?)

Personally I can't go back to SS amps that are in my budget, sorry I've not owned an 8000A.

If you're near the North Midlands you're welcome to come and have a listen

Kev

 

http://www.edenlake.com/amplifiers.htm MC368-B valve amplifier Price £650.00 + £22.00 UK mainland delivery, 50 wpc KT88 tubes. This is what I would have at that kind of money. The prima luna is also very well regarded.
The model below was prefered by many at a recent bake off to my nu vista m3 (£3.5k) at a recent bake off. The nu vista had more detail and seperation but the mingda was more musical and alive, so I should imagine the mc368b with the KT88 valves (same as I have in the II40's) sounds stunning.

I had an 8000a years ago, they are not in the same league as any of the mingda's. You will be stunned at just how much better an amp can sound.

 

Someone I know just changed their Audiolab 8000 for a endenlake thing.. the one at the top of the page. I am yet to catch up on how they are liking it but I will do so soon and let you know what she thinks.

Having said that she may say its crap just to spite me for recommending it as I did a job for her recently and she messed me around seriously on payment so... hardly friends anymore!

 

I remember being one of the reckomenees on that thread.

 

Hi MikeS

Re: The Icon 40SE that Tubeman mentioned I would also reccomend this companys products. Ipurchased their latest S40i version in march this year, this is the latest version of the 40SE and found it to be excellent. I was so impressed plus I had a small windfall so purchased their mono blocks and preamp. I will not need to change again for a very long time.

If you decide to go the Icon route I am able to offer you my Icon S40i. It was purchased on the 17th March and of course in perfect condition, just about run in I would think.

If you would like to see some photographs of the amp, including closeup's of the inside go here: http://photobucket.com/albums/y172/Zylog

Let me know if you have any interest.

 

Hi Zylog, I have one of these and am curious about the others, any poss of doing the internals of the monos and the pre please?

thanks

 

Putting my flame-proof suit on, there are plenty of used SS alternatives at that price, that I find very listenable and not in the least bit fatiguing or "hard".

I'm not saying that people like TubeMan are wrong, its just that there is a lot of hype re the superiority of tubes over SS.

I love the reliability, ease-of-use, (generally) higher feature-count, simpler operation and lack of idiosyncrasies you get with solid-state amps. They also (pound-for-pound) pump out more watts and can drive a greater number/variety of speakers than valve amps.

Yes, the valve amps mentioned are very good vfm and sound superb, but "musicality" and "sweetness" are not the sole preserve of electron tubes!

I would consider auditioning the following SS amps. They should all be around £6-800 used:

1) Audio Analogue Puccini Settanta
2) MF X-P100 + X-A50 monoblocks
3) Naim NAIT 5
4) Exposure 2010S
5) Rotel 1062
6) Sugden A21a

I defy any forum member to say they aren't fabulously involving and wonderful-sounding amplifiers for the money.

DT

PS, before you ask, I do have a valve amp and love it to bits. I also love my ss amps and think they sound wonderful too

 

Agree with Dynamic Turtle though it is odd that some of those amps mentioned are described as valve like, ie imitating the valve sound. True that having valves is less flexible, ie, waiting for it to warm up (usually 15 minutes) and not being able just to switch it on and off whenever you like.

JJ

 

Here is an audio innovations series 300 integrated with a border patrol power supply fitted.

It should be an excellent amp for under 700 pounds.

SCIDB has heard some audio innovations amps with BP power supplies fitted and would be better than I at describing them.

It does look like a lot of amp for the money, and I personally think you'd get that much back on ebay if you ever changed it.

http://www.sounds-of-music.co.uk/exdem-sh/amps.htm

 

btw, I didn't say they had a "valve" sound or were trying to imitate it. I just said that they were very involving, unfatiguing and musical imo.

DT

 

if you want valve like but not valve - have a chat with julian 2002 - he's just bought some mosfet/valve hybrid monoblocks and pre that is available for your budget.

(imported through cattylink)

he prefers it to a Naim 250, so its obviously pretty damn good.

http://www.cattylink.com/

they look like this but are in silver, and have a matching pre.

http://www.sounds-of-music.co.uk/jimages/vsat1lg.jpg

 

Mike,

Here's something to think about that might help your decision making.

As a relative newcomer to valve amplification I know the fi is much higher. How? Simple; my wife Melanie has become interested in music.

I like to listen to music when I get home from work and have done so for a very long time indeed.

However now when I go to switch the system off to make way for EastEnders, Corrie, Holby City et al she wants it leaving on and will happily watch without TV sound whilst the system plays.

She'll make comments about how good a bass player James Jamerson was, what fab musicians the Memphis Horns are and how we can now suddenly tell what Van Morrison is on about.

You want rhythm & timing?

You should see her shake her groove thang to "Can't Turn You Loose" by Otis Redding (sheesh! Dad dancing has nothing on this! It certainly gets my 20 year old daughter out of the room sharpish if we both start)

Seriously - prior to owning the valve amplification she never showed the slightest interest in what came out of the (expensive) hi-fi and like most hi-fi widows was at a loss as to what all the fuss was about (she preferred the tranny in the kitchen).

Music is a hobby we now enjoy together.

Better yet I don't need to feel guilty about the WAD valve phono stage I'm about to order.
:MILD:

 

One thing you should know is that all equipment marked up as either M-Star, Meixing, or Ming Da although having AC230v marked on the rear casing is actually AC220v. I received an email clarifying this, everything that comes out of the China factory building the aforementioned amps actual use 220v transformers.

Of course, if anyone wants to dis-prove this that's fine, I am only relaying what my Chinese source told me.

 

You may well be correct about Ming-da ect. but the Icon Audio amps are built to their own design and are specfied for UK voltage.

 

Give me a few days and I will see what I can do.

 

My first valve amp was removed from an old fifties radiogram..
I new nothing about valve amps, but had read that they needed good sized output transformers..
this amp had them, and i paid the sum of £2.50 for it from a local second hand shop i eventually seperated the radio from the amp and managed to get it going, i had just bought (when they 1st came out) the audio anologe pre & power amps) ( £1100)
it worked sort of ok.. so i got to work on it.. and replaced the capacitors and the volume control, it was a single ended el84 amp 4 watts p/c, and i used yamaha ns1000's at the time.. i spent around £100 on it,
prevous to that amp i had demo'd an audion 300b SE amp and was not impressed with the bass at all, but the little el84 amp was ok for me
I never listened to the solid state amp again and sold it a few months later.

there are all types of valve amps of different abillities, the old valves usually sound much better than the newly made ones, the wad kits are a good start if you can solder.. and very cheap compared to what you can buy in the shops

i few months ago i listened to a £30K linn system at a local hi fi shop i went straight home and listened to the same tracks on my system..
The linn system has a similar type of sound and presentation ( not the grey 'bought' hi fi sound, most will probably not be at the stage to know what i mean by that comment!)
but there was a noticable lack of detail compared to my system...

my system cost nothing like the linn.. just a bit of diy really and (very) little bit of knowledge..
since that first valve amp i got a bit carried away. i have/ had around 20 valve amps and now have 1,000's of valves.. old british, german and yanky ones.. (but no modern 300b's though!)

valve amps can be very simple.. . and in my books simple usually sounds the best if you can get it right....

cheers steve