Today's dumb question - timing

I notice that this has been coming up again in various posts. My question is, what does it mean? I think I've posed this before somewhere, but I can't find it, and clearly whatever answers I got didn't do the job, 'cos I'm still ignorant.

According to the Bible, er SOED (and ignoring the established technical meaning in relation to internal combustion engines), "timing" is "the fixing, ascertaining, noting or recording of time or times, the way something is timed, esp. when considered in relation to others". So, not a lot of help. The implication wrt hi-fi is that a piece of equipment "times" well when the notes come out of it in the correct time interval in relation to each other.

Now, if this is so, I've never heard any bit of sound reproducing equipment that didn't time well, from my tiny Sony SW receiver through the humblest boom-box to any hi-fi system I've ever heard. I've yet to hear anything in which, say, the bass note came out 1.25 seconds behind the high note, instead of 1 second. So, there must be another meaning. Anybody care to enlighten me? Or does the famous PRaT really mean, again according to the Bible, "fool, blockhead"?

 

Its a Naim thing mostly......I agree, I've rarely if ever heard this in the grossest sense. I think namies use it to divert people away from the more obvious failings of there systems....ie no imaging or spaital info reaching the speakers. Actually this is not totally true....at a recent bake off the Naim gear performed quite well in this regard after the cables were changed, ic speaker and power. To the point where it was more than acceptable to all the none naimies present.

 

FWIW here's my understanding:

Some kit sounds laid back and reproduces the music as if the musitians had been sliffing relenlessly for the whole of the previous day. Other kit seems to drive the music on as if the players had to catch the last bus home.

As for why this is: I have heard some people mention phase differences/shifts, leading edge or attack reproduction etc. In any case if there are real temporal differences they cannot be too great (ms rather than secs I would think) but then the human ear/brain combo is really quite good at recognising variations in the ms range.

 

tones,
like most things in hi-fi it's a subjective term and these things tend to fall apart if you put them under the spotlight of analysis and logic .
nos-4-a2 has pretty much nailed it for me - a feeling that the music is propelled along subjectively 'faster' or with more rhythmic intensity than on other kit. how this occurrs is the subject of much debate but for me it's a product of emphasising certain parts of the frequency spectrum and filtering out others.
as has been said naim kit tends concentrate on this rather than the more 'hi-fi' aspects of image. as zanash said naim can (and does) image however (if he was referring to the bake off at my place) i think the biggest improvement in these areas was brought about by moving the speakers in and toeing them in slightly. i'm pretty sure we didn't change my isolda as i was pretty paranoid about switching off my amp. we did change the source to pre i/c though for various others including a couple of zanash's own home brews, an omiga audio and the standard naim jobbie.
cheers


julian

 

Technobear's theory of timing

The human hearing system is acutely sensitive to small timing differences and small phase differences with respect to frequency. It's the way we locate things - both in direction and distance. In relation to music, I suspect that the impression of timing (or groove) of a system has much to do with small phase differences varying with frequency rather than gross differences in the time between notes.

A system that is said to time well will sound groovy and make you want to dance or set your toes tapping. A system that doesn't time well will sound rather dull and lifeless by comparison. Such a system may still have amazing imaging, soundstage, timbral accuracy, etc. etc. but it won't sound as involving or as real as a system that times.

All of which totally fails to explain why the addition of a Trichord Powerblock 1000 dramatically improved the perceived timing/groove of my system

Then again this could all be so much bovine digestive end-product

 

Gentlemen, thank you all kindly for your replies. All I can say is that I have never noticed the phenomenon. (Amittedly, I have never heard Naim, but I do have Linn, and is that not also in the PRaTernity? Anyway, whether it is or isn't, I've never heard it in the Linn stuff either). I personally would have put down toe-tappingness to the music itself, rather than the equipment, and I can't say ever that anything sounded more or less toe-tapping on my Linn active setup than it did on the Quad/LS3/5A setup.

It also sounds to me as if it's not only subjective, as per Julian, but also a matter of personal preference, or as they said in the ancient world, one man's Mede is another man's Persian. Some like it (whatever "it" is) and some don't and some, such as myself, do Clark Gable impersonations.

In any case, it shall not change my listening habits or equipment one iota, but I was just curious. Again, thank you.

 

The House of WM's answer to the wise sages question

Timing. Total musical cohesion with intergration of all bass/rythym underpinnings, playing with a syncronicity & cohevisiness that produces a involving and flowing presentation.
Side effects can be, top tapping/huge smile/the feeling of wanting to 'boop' general well being.
Naim, is far from the sole proviour of such traits, although naim does it in a mechancialy contrived fashion, others have the ability to do it in a natrual rythymic way.
However is possible to have a timed hifi system too, the best of both worlds is posible, call now for your free demonstration

 

My take,

most systems that alledgedly time well concentrate the mind on the bones of the recording. Other systems give you the meat. Very few do both, and by definition, if you add some meat you wont be able to see the skeleton quite as clearly.

 

I must then have two systems such as yours, Tone. Lucky me.

 

There was this guy, at the hifi store I go mostly, that used to wave his right hand during demos, and say "hear now, the timming is right... or not", until today I dont know what he meant...

He now opened his own store, where I never set foot... yet...

 

Tis indeed a fortuitious situation my elder name sake, thou art a rare indivdual.
As My learn'ed friend & counter foil Merlin has correctly illistrated, they are some what elusive in nature, and one is very rarely found with the other.
For your good self to accquired one of such completeness with recoarse to 'manipulation of the system' is a great event.
I doff my hat to you Tones, for you have achiveved this with the absolute mininum of fuss & expenditure
Where for myself its been a long and tortuous road, fraught with many a distracting mine field.
You are indeed a lucky person, unfortunately some of us arn't, and you'll just have to bear with us, even though it may amuse you Tones the younger and not so (yet) wisened

 

It's actually one or more of the following, Tone (a) almost total lack of discrimination; (b) not caring a fig about (a); and (c) having precisely zero interest in improving on (a) or (b) in any way. So, no bearing required, I merely wish you well on the self-erected mountain y'all seek to climb.

So, you might ask (on the other hand, you might not, but let's assume you're in an inquisitive mood), why do you bother with hi-fi forums? This is a good question - I really must try to think of a good answer...

 

Tones,
My humour is in sideways function today thats all
I've assended my erst while errected virtical structure now, many a rope was used
You did post
"So, you might ask (on the other hand, you might not, but let's assume you're in an inquisitive mood), why do you bother with hi-fi forums? This is a good question - I really must try to think of a good answer..."
Answers easy sir, your contributions in music rooms are quite damn good, even if I seldom wade the depths of intensity that you gentleman post, I can see genuine passion and interest in your choosen musical avenues.
Plus, you do have a habit of bring sanity and grounding to debates and technical discussions, maybe even on occations it makes you smile (it does me when I reread them weeks later.
A broad spread of opinions from extreme to ultra conservative make this place more times than most, your posts being a part of the whole. Tones Jnr

 

What can I say, but

:shame:

(Well, it's the nearest to blushing embarrassment that I could find).

 

Tones
Its your little ditties
where would we be without them

 

Happier?

 

LoL
Nooooooo

 

To be quite honest I also have no idea whether or not I've ever heard pace, rhythm or timing as applied to hifi kit. Maybe it's a music taste thing?

 

here goes...I have no idea, I have heard lots of amps and speakers.

I don't know why naim does what it does, i don't think anyone can explain how an engineering design will give definable characteristics of hifi. that is what I mean when I say sound can't be designed in...you don't know how your design will sound in the categories we think of as aspects of hifi...bass, smooth treble, time, imaging, dynamics, etc.

I think with naim its to do with the psu and the output stage, they keep the whole design output stage on all their amps...trouble is they can't really raise the power much, so to keep it, they must bridge, as they have done. If they didn't think it was key, they would change the design, and they haven't for 30 yrs, what does that tell you?

Naim does time, it is rhythmic, and for that reason, enjoyable, there is nothing quite like having music propelled, driven, infectious, its the life beat, the pulse beat, and beat is indeed the backbone of todays music.