Tone Controls

Ok. I know in theory why so many modern amps don't have em - extra stuff in the signal path degrades the signal - but don't you think sometimes they'd be useful?

Is there any way they could be implemented in a system without buggering things up?

 

they are evil and should be banned!!! :duck: :lol:

 

Is that a well thought out philosophical point of view or just a knee jerk faith based reaction?

 

No. They're analogue filters so they're going to do something bad somewhere. Is there a specific problem you have? Tuning it out with other stuff is usually better. Generally costs more but its better in the long run.

 

No. Not a specific problem. Generally very happy with the system at the moment. I was just wondering as the only good reasons for losing them seem to be technical rather than tone controls generally not being useful. We all have the odd record or CD that could do with a bit of taming or a bit of a lift - no system can turn sows ears into silk purses and in those circumstances I'd suggest tone controls could have their uses.

So are you basically saying that they are inherently wrong and can't be implemented well?

 

Given the amount of money people spend on cables and the like to achieve what a well-executed tone control can do, I can see why lots of manufacturers leave them off ;-)

Quad still include them, sensible people. Other than that I can't think of a single UK hi-fi brand above the budget sector who do. Stupid IMO.

-- Ian

 

Actiually thinking about this further ... They're analogue filters right? The crossovers in our speakers ... aren't they analogue filters (albeit ones you can't easily adjust)? Hmmm ... So why is it ok to have them in a crossover but not in your amp?

 

Well alot of people go along way to simplify or completely remove x-overs for the same reason. And alot of the problems with digital gear come from its analogue filters.
IMO removing any filters you can is generally a good thing, thinking they only affect the stuff they cut out is very much wishful thinking.

 

I would guess its not ok to have the analgoue filters in the speakers cross overs but we have no choice in a conventional 2 or 3 way design. We need to split the higher and lower frequencies. We don't need tone controls, a properly setup system should never need them.

I have mostly budget kit I have never once thought I could do with tone controls here, it just degrades the sound whichis very noticale in the mid range.

 

How can you split the frequencies without using a cross over though? This what I don't get? Unless you use one driver that is capable of a very high range.

 

You don't have to split them with full range drivers. Have a look at the single-driver website, can find it through google I think, they'll explain it. Some classy looking speakers too.

 

The original Musical fidelity x series, tht etubular ones, had a component called x-tone, basically a +/- 6dB tilt control for bass mid and high IIRC, they can still be had s/h but are a bit thin on the ground, some judicious looking might procure you one.

 

Do you own a copy of Definitely Maybe? Actually that only needs one tone control - called the off button.

 

All systems should have tone controls. Some stupid Julian geezer convinced the world otherwise and now those obsessed with hifi rather than music endure descriminatory playback chains with a consequential loss of musical enjoyment.

But of course if all you do is read hifi magazines, you might well think otherwise.

 

Does it have a bypass switch?

Like I said I don't have a particular problem with the current setup and don't want to get into a "you're setup must be crap if you think you need tone controls" type situation. But I would question the "Tone controls are unnecessary as a good system doesn't need them" mantra which seems to have been passed down in hifi circles since ... well I don't know when, but my old man used to intone it 25 years ago.

95% of the time it may be true, but it doesn't account for stoned, half asleep, hungover or just plain incompetent recording engineers at the other end of the chain. If it can't be done without arsing things up, then fair enough I guess. Must say though, I don't want them on my Densen cos it wouldn't look half as cool with loads of extra knobs

 

seriously, i have always felt that simplifying and shortening signal paths seemed like the best path. i have with my system, tried to select components to achieve the balance i'm looking for without sticking "stuff" in the way.

i used to have (years ago when i was a student in the US...) a room compensator thing that used a pink noise generator and a microphone to adjust the signal, effectively a glorified equaliser. i thought it was the dogs. i have however found that the simpler the system i have had the more natural and real it has sounded.

this could just be down to dodgy early 90's implementation of room correction eq's but i have found that any problems from room interactions are usually far less of a problem than all the means used to try and correct them....

i like to think that, short of loosing the pre amp (which provides some convenience which helps justify things with the wife... ie. i can play her movies through the system.), my system is about as simple as you can get.... ok, without getting the hair shirt out and using single ended amps and ultra high efficiency speakers...

 

I wouldn't disagree if we assume that tone controls can't be implemented without deteriorating the signal path. In other words ruling them out for technical reasons. That I'm happy to accept. Try a mind exercise though - imagine someone came up with a tone contol system which absolutely didn't mess up the signal path - would they then be of no use? In no circumstances?

 

Given the amount already in the signal path from recording to playback, a decent tone control, with bypass, doesn't seem like the straw that broke the camel's back to me. Plenty of world class amps have them, they just aren't made in the UK.

-- Ian

 

I have a Panasonic Portable which softens any frequencies about 18khz so its not a problem And yes I do have an off album, I don't own a copy of that album (how ironic considering my websites) but my sister does.

I am a like a mad fan of Liverpool music who dosn't own a single beatles album

 

No you aren't .... the Beatles are very good