Tony Blairs words on society

Do you think they'll have any effect? I must admit I felt pretty depressed last night after watching something about Slap Happy TV on the news (kids going around randomly attacking people and filming it on their mobile phones) and then watching Supernanny and thinking that for every family on that show there must be thousands who have no idea how to sort out their kids and end up with a couple of criminals.

My view is that it all comes from the way you're brought up (not controversial I know). People will go out and make a nuisance of themselves at some point in their lives, I know good folk who have snapped off car aerials and been in fights, standard Saturday night British behaviour, but those who have been brought up properly will usually get back into line at some point. Its those that have been badly brought up that are lost causes unless they discover some greater meaning and sort themslevs out but even this requires some spark of intelligence lacking if you're badly brought up and never went to school.

How is Tony going to sort it out? I'm sure there must be a case for a nationwide, well funded, parenting skills program or some kind of instructional program like Supernanny. If Jamie Oliver can do it for school dinners surely someone can do it for parenting? Its got to be better than introducing on the spot fines and banning hoodies in shopping centres! So how do you nurture respect in a society? And lets stay away from the 'cut off their hands' replies. Tempting I know...I was questioning resorting to beatings when watching the news last night but I think there must be a more intelligent solution. At least I hope there is.

 

Its not bleedin parenting, its society.

its the natural evolution of this society with haves and have nots, rich and poor, declines in morals, me culture, celebrity culture, media culture, shit on tv,shit people running the tv, do gooders, illegal immigrants, envy, loss of communities,
....I don't know the bleedin neighbours anymore 2 houses down.

too many things too little time to do them, too many people in the uk, overcrowding, too little cash to buy to many wants, advertising, marketing bullshit too high expectations, soaps on tv violence on tv and computer games.

parenting is a natural thing, its not responsible alone, lack of parenting comes from lack of time due to too much to get done.

america culture infringing, a lot of crap does come from california, real crap

those are the causes solutions....dont' know. reverse the changes really. only way, can't do tho'.

good to hear real concerns are being acknowledged tho'

 

Perhaps lectures about lawlessness would carry more weight from someone with the moral authority to give them.

 

Tony have to do his part.............. but so do you and me.

 

ID cards.

 

1) free contraception - if you're catholic you'll have to abstain.

2) halve standard child benefit.

3) have free parenting classes. this must be passed once for each child you have. if you pass your child benefit for that child increases to twice what it is now. so if an existing single parent has 3 kids they have to pass the course 3 times to get the maximum level of child benefit - this is to drum it into the parent and for other reasons see below.

4) have different types of tuition according to the parents situation. i.e. a new borns parent will want a different course to a teenagers.

5) TEACH PARENTING SKILLS IN SCHOOL AS A COMPULSORY LESSON.

6) have refresher courses every 5 years so you can learn the teenager stuff before your kid gets there. your child benefit is dependant upon a pass in this.

ok it won;t cure everything but as a single parent myself i know how tough it is to raise kids. i'm just lucky that my mum is a registered nursery nurse so i have someone there who taught me through example and who i can ask questions of when i need advice.

as data pointed out society also has to shoulder some of the blame, however a parent is ultimately responsible for what their child watches when at home and they are also the arbiter of what happens elsewhere too, many parents seem to have forgotten that or are too wishy washy to stand up to their kids and say NO.
cheers


julian.

 

In many conversations I've had with people on this subject it does seem that there has been a marked shift.

For example, someone I know (in his 40s) said that if he had been out somewhere and had been caught misbehaving he'd have got a clip around the ear from the local bobby. When he got home, he'd get another one.

These days if a kid got a clip around the ear from a policeman the parents would take the kid's side and say it was unprovoked and sue the police.

So, it's about trust. The parents don't trust the police or teachers to make appropriate judgements on behaviour nor to administer corporal punishment. The police and teachers don't trust the parents to trust their judgement and consequently become powerless due to the threat of litigation.

It does seem that some (certainly not all) parents are unwilling to appropriately discipline their children. The teachers can't discipline those children because those parents who won't discipline their own children are most likely to sue. Thus those children don't receive any discipline and can (on sad occasions literally) get away with murder.

It's a vicious circle, but how did it start? Where has that lack of trust come from?

Society has become very significantly more secular in the same time frame. The real change is in cynicism though. People no longer take things at face value. 150 years ago if you saw something it was through your own eyes and so you believed it. Now people watch films, soap operas, play computer games, have access to unlimited uncensored material on any subject via the internet. Consequently if you see someone killed in a film it's nothing special. Show that to someone who's never seen a television and they'll react differently.

Equally, we're better informed now than ever. We have access to news in detail from any part of the world. We read cases of murder, sexual abuse, assault, etc and know it's all around. So we don't trust anyone not to do that to us or to children.

In addition to that though, there's the celebrity culture, as data was suggesting. Glossy magazines portray the beckhams as gods that everyone must aspire to be like. The only problem is that it requires money, and the people most attracted to that are typically in the lower social strata. It is difficult to move upwards, and many people are lazy so when the opportunity to acquire money through a frivolous lawsuit against a teacher arises then it may be seized. It appears to be a victimless suit as it's all against the institution (except, of course, for the poor teacher).

There's also the question of aspiration. What do people want to be? Show people pictures of a university professor, a doctor, Mother Teresa and david bloody beckham and ask which one they most want to be like. I think you know the answer. beckham is the most highly rewarded by a long way. Entertainment has its value but in my opinion he is the lowest contributor to humanity of those four.

 

Preferably someone who didn't
a) bask in the reflected glory of the yobbish Gallagher brothers
b) re-employ ministers who got caught with their trousers down
not to mention
c) knowingly mislead the House of Commons and the British people.

 

agreed, Isaac, totally.

Its strange how society is turned on its head, the people that contribute least are the types that get the most, eg what does Beckham do? zip, gets a photo and gets a million, whilst getting flown to a location.
similar with entertainers and singers, what do they really contribute? 2 hour show if that.

What would we be without binmen or roads or nurses? terrible.

would we miss beckham....no, objectively, would we miss bin collections, you bet.

Strangely, people too in this and probably the world seem totally thick and unable to reject the crap that they are offered by the mags./media they just accept it and buy it, into the monkey pecking order, cos that's all it is, top male gets all the female apes and food. perhaps if you can't beat em join em maybe.

 

R&R vs Me First.

I have noticed that over the last few year that a lot of time, effort and money has gone into making school children and feel that too much emphasis may have been placed upon the rights and not the responsibilities. So should not rights only acrue to those people who have been responsible in the eyes of others or society as a whole?

 

All I can say is if someone tries to film me getting a hiding, that video camera will be filming the inside of someones rectum when I get hold of it!

 

Surely it all starts with the individual? A well rounded individual will be able to see what is happening in the world around them and make the choice of whether or not to buy into it. Theres too many people being born into this world thinking that theres no alternative to the way the world works at the moment.

Society is driven by the individual and the consumer, it is shaped by us so if we increase the amount of responsible, educated people in society we will turn the tide and create a concious population. What society offers is only a reaction to what sells, its not shaped by government policy or some conspiracy. Change things at the individual level and society shifts to react to its needs. Its like your recommendations on Amazon...I don't get offered books on how to mod your car because I haven't bought into those products in the past!

From the root to the fruit, thats where everything started at.

 

as depeche mode say 'get the ballance right' I think society and triends within are like a see saw either up or down, children should be seen and not heared coulture has been replaced with kids calling the shots and neither are right, IMO children should be part of the conversation etc and involved. Years ago racialism was excepted and people didn't think it wrong to call asians packies etc now councils are offering jobs solely to minority groups again, up and down all should have equal opportunity. Wherever you look its the same children were being beaten now you can't spank them, I got spanked, pumped even cained it tought me respect no other way could.

Agree with Isaac though, the people that want the most are lazy and prepared to do the least for it. The ones that envy you don't envy the effort you put in! Even Beckham puts serious effort in, and has dedicated his life to his career, his dedication means he has the salad when I pick the cream cake, he moves onto bottled water when I move onto vodka, he gets up and trains regardless when I put the hifi on and he shaggs Victoria which I think he deserves a medal for (esp if she sings during). His salary may seem excessive for what he does but he is more than just natural talent he puts the effort in and is a team player.

 

Ok, yes, beckham may be dedicated and hard working and perhaps I played that down unfairly. The same is true of many great sportsmen. And entertainers such as musicians and sportsmen deserve reward for dedication just as we all do.

However, the reward seems utterly disproportionate. People complain about headmasters at troubled schools being offered £100k. I say they're underpaid at that.

 

Likewise I wasn't saying his salary/reward was in proportion (clearly its excessive) although I do think its more proporionate than what people who have no intentions of working get. I'm not talking people who are ill or looking for work but the waste of life type that collect their benefits and go to the off license with it, they should be made to do something menial for it like shopping for elderly people. The only reward for being lazy should be an empty stomach not a house, tv and beer.

 

We had this discussion back in A level Economics class. Supply and demand, innit? Only a handful of people can play footie like Beckham, but demand is very high, so the price is high. On other hand, anyone can sweep the streets, and so (depending on the unemployment rate) the supply is high, so the price is low.

All that's needed to turn round school discipline is to remove the possibility of children suing their teachers for assault. No need to pay £100k a year for headmasters. Ours worked for nowt but the sheer joy of beating children.

 

If people like Rooney and Beckham had the personality and vision of Ali I wonder what the country would be like. Good role models are certainly part of a great society and it used to be that most kids could look to their parents as role models. Is this still true? And if it is, is it desirable?!

 

a lot of people who work are dedicated and put in as much, I am not denying sports dedication, only the rewards.why should being a 'public' thing mean you are recognised more, isn't a student as good as an athlete in that both 'train' every day, a worker on a studycourse?

Beckham can only pass and cross, he isn't that good at anthing else.

we don't need football, we do need services. supply and demand doesn't really apply with football from a person in the streets point of view, yes I suppose for transfers and all that,
as its not somthing you get off the shelf as such, the economy woudln't collapse if football vanished.

 

As I suggested in one of ATs threads people need to take responsibility for their own actions. Everyone these days seems to have an excuse for everything. Whatever you do you are responsible for be it good or bad.

 

Assuming everyone on this board is pretty much law abiding and considerate towards others, you have to ask yourself why have you turned out the way you are?

Parents, family, teachers, friends, who had the biggest impact on your opinion of right and wrong, and what stops you doing things that you think are wrong?

My parents and friends influenced me the most and likewise, the fear of disappointing them stopped me doing things wrong.