Turntable confusion

Hello all,

A few weeks ago I asked for general advice. I didn't really expect to be able to hear much difference between systems above a certain level and so just wanted to know the most reliable options. Unfortunately, this has proved not to be the case.

So far, I have listened to:

1. Rega P3/RB301/Elys 2: did not like it. Ruined strings and long held notes of all varieties.

2. Rega P3/RB301/DV10x5: The P3 sounded much better with a DV 10x5 but not good enough.

3. Rega P5/RB700/Elys2: sounded worse that the P3 with the 10x5. Could not handle long notes either. Brassy, muddled high notes.

4. Opus Continuo 3/Moerch arm/Blue Point Special III: intellectually, no problems with this one. Emotionally, I felt depressed. Just too dark for my liking, though it took everything I gave it and returned a respectable product.

5. GyroDec/ Blue Point Special III: quite pleasing, I liked its open sound. A bit of a step up again in terms of price. Something didn't quite grab me though. Also, I like to have a dustcover but I don't really like the big plastic box around the Gyro.

6. Roksan Xerxes (original) /Moerch arm/ Blue Point Special III: excellent with Copland's Appalachian Spring, left me wanting a bit more life and breath with Emma Kirkby singing Purcell.

7. Townshend Rock 7/Rega 301/a more expensive cartridge that I have forgotten the name of: the opposite of the Roksan; very nice with Emma Kirkby, not quite as musical and engaging with the Copland.

As you can see, I am driving myself up the wall. Of them all, the one that tempts me the most is the Roksan perhaps. But I really felt it was lacking something with the female vocals to the extent that even the Rega P3 (with the DV 10x5) might have been a match for it in that area.

What should I do? Settle? Get one of these but a different cartridge? Keep looking? I'm feeling a little miserable about the whole process right now.

 

Other options might include:

1. Roksan Radius V with Origin Live upgrade.
2. Trying to hear some of these again (though the dealer's patience can only last so long).
3. S/H LP12s (big risk as it is impossible to compare like with like amongst LP12s).
4. New Thorens TD160HD (or other new Thorens) - requires a trip to Slough.
5. Another price jump again (Orbe/Amazon)

Is it possible that a brighter amplifier might bring more life to the Roksan Xerxes? The set-up I was listening to was definitely on the warm side.

 

One more thing, it may be that I am just identifying an unresolvable problem: a turntable that gets the pace right for a larger orchestral piece (Roksan) won't be able to get the humanity out of a voice and vice versa (Townshend Rock 7). Is there anything in that? If so, is there a solution? The two things I listen to most are probably orchestral numbers and female voices so it would be a nuisance.

 

IMO you should stop looking for subjective opinion on a hi-fi forum, given that you have the means and ability to listen to many different combinations for yourself. You don't need your decisions verified by a forum!

Nobody is going to give you the right answer here when it comes to a matter of preference.
Technical stuff, general audio discussions and questions such as 'is product A compatible with product B' are fine but forget the rest, you'll end up even more confused.

 

Ivor Tiefbrun (no apologies for a mis-spelt surname Ivor ) made the universe think that 'turntable first' was the way to buy a hifi.

You know, he had a point, but now it's 2009 and I think all those decks you mention can produce a nice sound.

Loudspeakers, room interaction with the sound, these have a bigger impact on the faithfullness of the recording to what you actually here.


Point of reference, my own system (about £10k second hand value) can be beaten by a £3k second hand value system in a much better listening acoustic.

Who ever said that life was fair ?!

 

Isn't the vast majority of traffic on any forum based on subjective opinion? Take the recent Lathed vs non-lathed post as an example.

I think every piece of advice from anywhere should be taken as exactly that, advice not gospel. My take on what is 'right' can be completely different from anyone else's. However, it could be that somebody with the same tastes (and ears), as the OP could have a valid recommendation to make.

Wishy washy as it may be, if you paired down the forum to purely technical discussion then there wouldn't be much left, same with magazines, and probably manufacturers too.

As for the OP. I'd go with Bottleneck on this one, they all appear to be reasonable rigs, maybe look at the (next?) biggest source of distortion, your speakers.

As a rough guide I have always kind of assumed that the transducers make the biggest contribution to system distortion; so the speakers and cart are often the part that influences the sound to the greatest degree.

 

Try an LP12.
You can either try and find one second hand from a dealer or buy one from EBAY. Spend a couple hours setting it up, and play. If you dont like it, put it back on EBAY. They hold their price well.

All the advice in the world is no substitute for trying different equipment. What one likes, another despises!!!

Regards
JOhn

 

I have to say, I'm with Scott 100% here. I'm not asking for someone to tell me what to do so that I can blindly follow. The point is that I've had 1 hour with each of these TTs (2 with the Roksan). Others may have had similar or different experiences. Others may have recognised my situation and found solutions with another bit of equipment. Others may have views about a similar price-point TT that seems to resolve the tension I describe between the Roksan and the Townshend.

Or not. But nobody has time to spend 15 hours with every deck they're interested in, let alone try it out with every permutation of amp/cartridge, etc. I just thought that by harnessing a bit of collective knowledge, I might move myself forward a bit more quickly.

 

Ihave a Thorens TD850 with a SME309 Arm the original AC motor packed up so ifitted it with a Origin Live Ultra motor kit i
am using a Benz Glider cartridge low output i have the motor in a stand off position all sounds great here is the but i cant get a belt to fit all to short so i have been trying all types of
materials they all work but i get to much slip am now working
on the platter 25MM thick. A good T/T. Can.recommend O.L.
motor kit for any T/T. Noel W.

 

What ever you want to do!

If in doubt do owt, so probably not.

Why?

I wish I had the dosh and time to look for a decent high end turn table.

One thing, I wouldn't expect one system to do all thing for you. IME this has never been the case.

Just try to enjoy the experience of experimenting with different kit ( cartidges etc etc).

I would say, as i*m sure you already know, the devil is in the detail and careful set-up can reveal an enormous amount of potential.

 

Two things to consider here.

Yes, most traffic is based on subjective opinion, but that makes it of quite limited worth IMO to someone looking for buying advice purely because the opinions offered will range far and wide. I can see some case for it where someone simply cannot audition equipment but even then it is likely to confuse more than assist.

Subjective discussion is fine on the wider level and were you aren't giving buying advice - just general discussion.
The lathing thing is a little different as we are still at base camp on that one, trying to determine the existence of a difference before moving on to discuss preferences.

 

As rob says, experimental stuff apart (I have my own opnion on that) much of is subjective , yes.

 

Rob, applying your own logic, whether other people "think" they can hear a difference between the lathed and unlathed recording is only going to confuse you, right?

I don't agree. I think it may be helpful if a clear consensus emerges. (Though the fact that the votes at the moment are so evenly distributed suggests to me there probably is no difference, and I say that having voted for having preferred one than the other.)

I'm not really asking for random advice like "try a spacedeck, I'm happy with it". More like, "well, Sammyo, the differences you identify between the Roksan and the Townshend are probably real differences caused by [factor A] and, you're probably unlikely to find something that resolves those differences altogether. You could try doing [X] to the Roksan or using it with amplifier [Y]. Or, you could try a TT like the [Z] which has more balanced properties."

Maybe there's no such advice out there, maybe not.

But I'm surprised at the resentfulness of the responses. Maybe there's a bit of denial going on for people who fear that they spend an awful lot of time on a forum chatting about the sartorial elegance of an emperor who has no clothes.

 

No.

Lathing, like several other 'tweaks' falls into the hotly argued category where the existence of a difference (forget preference for a moment) is open to question. Blind testing is merely exploring the argument further without expectation bias.

This is very different to forum members telling you which TT to buy based on their - not your - personal preference.
The point I am making albeit in a rather long-winded way, is that folk shouldn't need to have their choices endorsed or rubber stamped by others. The phenomenon is rife on forums and it feeds the never ending cycle of upgrading and swapping.

There is plenty of advice out there - just take it with a huge pinch of salt

 

I'm no sure as any one can give you such definitive answers because as you observe yourself, these things are very subjective.

As you say there is a fair variation in responses so I wouldn't write off experiment "A" or "B" because of a poor response, try it your self and see if it works you!

 

well thats just a reflection of the person responding ......

you obviously hear things in a similar way to myself as I've sagely nodded at your various comments on each tt combination. As you may have noticed there are certain factions that would want you to conform to their way of thinking ...this at best is fatuous and at worse deliberately misleading.

In the end any equipment choice is a personal one ...it doesn't matter if your going against the current flavour of the month or event current best ideas ....if you like it then its good enough for you .....

If your pushed into the herds recomendation , your going to have to live with something you might not like ..till you can afford to swap it !

TT can as you have experienced emphasis diferent aspects of the recorded media .... don't let anyone tell you otherwise ..you heard it, so for yourself thats a true analysis/appreciation of the music listened to . It always makes me laugh when someone tries to tell you what you heard ...when they weren't within a hundred miles of the listening room [also shows them to be fools ].......

You must decide what your compromises are in terms of performance against price [more expensive does not always mean better just different] ..then try to get the best out of the equiment once you get it home ...


Its very rare that you will hear the same thing as you did in the specially built listening room ...even with a home demo if its not using the same tt , there can be differences due to almost any factor you care to mention ....this might include break in ,burn in, both mechanical and electrical, tempurature humidity, mains pollution , mood the list is endless.

What your looking for is sometimes call synergy ...or a sound thats greater than the sum of its parts ...unfortunately this is what most people who have the "ear" are striving for ...and those that don't ....will try to convince you it doesn't exist!

 

.............. In other words ................. listen for yourself and make up your own mind.

 

Exactly.

 

Smmyo, try the roksan with a different arm.

 

Rob, I respectfully disagree with your distinction between subjective views of the difference between lathed and non-lathed CDs and subjective views of different turntables. Just because the former is more controversial, doesn't make an individual's subjective view more worthwhile. In fact, people can explain quite clearly sometimes the differences between different turntables. The way it makes you feel is subjective but the fact that the Opus is massier and darker than the GyroDec is pretty uncontroversial.

As you can see I have been listening and trying to make up my own mind but faced with an enormous market and limited amounts of time, I was looking for some advice about what to try next given an explanation of what I feel to be quite succinct and reasonable responses to what I've heard so far.

People do need advice. A few weeks ago I had no idea where to start and people said the P3. That wasn't a stupid subjective response. As I have found out, that is a very sensible starting point. It's good value at under £500 for a full set-up. For me, it wasn't quite right. I did an awful lot of research on the net (more subjective views) and came up with some sensible ideas to try next (rather than, as you would seem to suggest, attempting to listen to every turntable/arm/cartridge combination in the country rather than trust anyone's subjective views just in case I happened to subjectively prefer the Pro-Ject entry model to the GyroDec).

I think that was a good way forward and am reasonably comfortable at this price point but feel that I could do better if I knew where to look (maybe in terms of a different TT, maybe in terms of a different amp or cartridge, say).

I'm looking for something a little more considered than someone else's subjective views of what they like.

Again, how you respond is subjective but some of the differences between these things are pretty widely agreed upon and I think your responses to my questions have been unfair and not a little rude.