Tweeter Quest

I've got three different settings in the DEQX and each is different. the first is 400hz and I tend to use this the most, then 500hz and there's also one at 650hz. I tend to flick between these like someone with OCD and can't conclusively make my mind up which sounds better to me over the widest range of music, the differences between each are quite subtle. I tend to listen to memory A the most which is the 400hz settings.

All use 96dB/Oct slopes BTW.

I've got HD measurements for the SM75-150S and the SM75-150. Its interesting because they measure better than the mag figures discussed ages ago. Why won't I post them? Because I can imagine it now; words like fixed, inaccurate measurements and just generally trolling from the usual narrow minded suspects.

 

Do you not find in a three way where the drivers are spaced a considerable distance apart, that 96dB/Oct is a bit too steep? If you move a bit don't you find it changes?

I'm all for steep slopes, but 96dB/oct seems steep!

I'm not surprised 400Hz is the one you use most, low crossover points ish goot!

 

The bass/mid driver spacing and the wavelength of 400hz is well within reason, I could cross at upto 820hz before I needed to start worrying.

Off axis response is actually improved with higher order slopes whereby I don't get lobing errors from driver interations well past the intended passband.

 

Are you nicking Bubs material now?

I used to get myself into a lot of trouble with my temper when I was younger, I've grown out of that side now but I'd make an exception. I'm down in London for a long weekend from 25-27th August, PM me your address and I can come around if you like. Foolish little man, don't make threats you can't keep.

Your definitely a rubber chicken in loudspeaker design terms, someone that peddles opinions and misinformation and passes it off as expert as advice. Then others even less knowledgable, flock around and continue to pass on this rubbish, eventually it spreads like a disease. Actually I haven't seen anyone run with your idea's on loudspeaker design yet. Make that a solitary rubber chicken.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Wow, conflicting measurements, that seems to be the running theme with you.

See above.

A ribbon that measures well. Of course there would be such a thing but most are inferior to a good dome as backed up by measurements from knowledgable testers that post their results online but there's also a lot of folks that enjoy them too. I'm also sure you've had other drivers in your posession at some point that measured well.

A good treble unit doesn't make for a low distortion loudspeaker system.

That's not the same vifa unit I linked to. So your point is?

Well since you collect HobbyHifi pull out issue 1-2004 and look at the tweeter group test with measurements to 14v. The R2904 is featured in the group and it does better than the vifa you just posted, so stop with the 'fits my perspective crap'. Your usual bull**** might have washed if I didn't happen to collect HobbyHifi.

Again I'm confused about your low distortion claims and the system you use. If Simon heard garbage then the ATC must look like gods own in measurements terms.

I've also my own HD measurements on the ATC that suggest otherwise, its definitely not the lowest distortion mid ever built but its better than the rubbish you was quoting last year. Have a more rounded look at the measurements as a whole and you'll see that the impulse response is excellent, arguably just as important as THD. Unlike you I don't preach about low distortion and then end up with egg on my face.

To say you like hifi so much, opinions on your system aren't anything more than luke warm.

Audible distortion is jolly low? Simon must be spinning me third or forth hand information.

I'd put you on my ignore list but this is too much fun to pass up.

But good, you won't see this:

My balls, your chin.

 

Yes indeed - it sounds ragged, though to be fair the atc is unremarkable in other aspects not just the mid. I will leave enough sauce for when you come listen to the pmcs .

Lets not descend into silly threat making - it really does you no credit. Thorstens system does actually sound pretty good - though I would of course prefer all the valves taken out!

 

The ATC mid is excellent when used correctly as Shin says - I have been making similar criticisms of ATC's use of it for some time.

Listen to it in the Proac D100 and you will understand BBV. ST has been working with it for a decade or more.

 

That might likely be so - however my criticism of atc speakers extends further. They just dont rock. Great for classical though.

 

SME's don't rock either of course.

It's ironic that your persuit of a better tweeter shows your acceptance of what we have all been telling you about the PMC sound.

 

yes, I'd say a metalic flute sounds metalic.

The material contributes to a sound of a musical instrument, of course it does. Take a resonator guitar, an Ovation, a Martin.

With wooden instruments - the age, thickness, type of tone wood etc all contribute towards the sound.

Electronic giggery-pokery can alter things, but never replace the fundamental tone you start with.

 

LOL

Like you'd know!

 

Murray - I have classical in my collection alongside a great many other things. You just assume I listen only to rock as I have pmc but that is not the case and you havent seen my record collection. So... like you'd know!

S&M - the pmc tweeter is a great example of a conventional tweeter. It can be bettered using other technologies and I have made that comment on numerous occasions. There is nothing wrong with the pmc sound I just want to tweak it a bit further. Any commercial design can be improved. You are correct yes - sme decks dont rock. I suspect you cant either.

 

Hi BBV,

I wasn't suggesting that you didn't listen to classical music . I was just querying whether you would know how well reproduced classical music can actually sound (particularly if you think the ATC's or PMC's do it well)

I'm also on a personal quest to see how many times I can get you to invite me to come and listen to your system! (only kidding)

One of the most interesting aspects of our 'hobby' (I don't like calling it that, listening to music is the hobby) is that people can have such differing views on how music should be reproduced. The world would be very dull if everyone shared the same tastes.

I do think that you will have great difficulties integrating a ribbon, planar or plasma type tweeter with your speakers though. I've listened to several versions of Magnat's plasma tweeter and while it has some very interesting qualities it seems almost impossible (to me) to get it to blend with a conventional midrange driver. Ribbons, I don't like at all. Their signature is just too dominant every time I hear one. I haven't listened to too many electrostatic tweeters however but every attempt I've heard to integrate electrostatic drivers with moving coil drivers has been disappointing.

Good luck with your experiments. I'll be interested to read how you get on.

 

Ah sorry I misunderstood.

You are of course welcome to the next bakeoff .

I go often to the south bank, barbican for concerts. The only reason I dont have more classical in my collection is that its all on cd.

I think ATC does classical better than rock, however I wouldnt go so far as to say it does classical well. I really dont get on with ATC speakers. The PMC is a good alrounder and has several strong areas - I am looking for kit that plays all genres equally well and it fits the bill for me. It would probably be easy to put together a genre specialised system that beats it in any particular area for very much less money. People are also looking to concentrate on different aspects.

You are probably right about the integration - so perhaps T's isoplanar approach is the best bet. Its just something I wanted to try. My akgs marry dynamic and electrostatic quite well but that clearly doesnt apply to speaker tweeters.

 

These comments are not acceptable. There is a line between reasonable debate and threatening, crass and generally unpleasant behaviour and it has been crossed by both sides.

I believe you both have something to bring to this forum, but arguing to the death with anyone who disagrees with you is not the way to bring it.

 

Indeed. Perhaps somebody can enlighten me concerning the revision I need to undertake to better understand issues of driver integration?

 

Mainly you need to look at dispersion, decay rate and frequency response. Maybe the material its made of too

If you can get some figures on the midrange driver it would help I expect. Basically don't match a very wide dispersion midrange with a tweeter which has very narrow dispersion in the same range (Xover point). Don't match something with a really long decay rate in the same area to something that does not. In both cases it is expected that the characteristics vary with frequency, but watch out for sudden changes.

Also keep an eye on max SPL ability, impedance and efficiency.

 

Well I assume its a bit like the atc dome for which there are published specs?

 

Changing the tweeter on a commercial product is a f***ing stupid idea. How long do you think a manufacturer takes making sure he has an integrated product voiced correctly before going to market? All so that some clueless baffoon can chop out a bit and try to improve on it? Madness.

By all means build your own monitor from scratch. With something like a DEQX and a good level of knowledge you should be able to approach the work of a professional.

BBV, you are never happy with your system. You always want to try different transformers, different regs, capacitors, tweeters. Why not listen to some decent setups and buy some good sounding kit in the first place.

PMC monitors are one of those speakers that are uncoloured to the point of sounding coloured. Same goes for Bryston. Put a classical musician in front of them and they will weep at the loss of vibrancy and tonal colour. I suspect this is what you are missing. Botching a fix on an unsuitable product is not IMO the answer. But by all means waste more of your time and money if you feel so inclined.

 

Surely PMC make such bad speakers it will be hard to get them any worse!

 

No system is perfect S&M - as evidenced by your own frequent changes. If I try to improve it I will do so in a methodical and scientific way having got to grips with the underlying theory.

I have only tried one transformer not having tried it before - it worked. No different regs or caps yet. I hardly think toying with the idea of a ribbon tweeter is mere whimsy.

Uncoloured to the point of sounding coloured? It means nothing. Tonal colour and vibrancy that your equipment invents regardless of who weeps in front of it or not. What I am actually missing is a little bit of bass from the phono compared with the WAD (now much better due to my pointless and mad tinkering) and the cleaness and speed a ribbon can provide in the treble. Apart from thats its pretty good.

My only crime is that I am a freakin tweaker.