upgrade poweramp&speakers or add sub?

Wolfgang,

I remember reading about the T+A Criterion (I think it was called) about 2 years ago in hifi news.

This speaker had a ribbon tweeter and a built in valve amp for the treble!

The idea was that you would use a more powerful amp for the lower mids and the bass drivers.

I think these 1/2 way actives are an interesting idea for people who want to make full use of a power amp they already have, and are potentially cheaper than a full active system..

 

Found this article written by JOHN WATKINSON for Resolution Magazine. Long but in summary it supports what WM said above.
Everyone happy?

http://www.resolutionmag.com/pdfs/DRAGONS/GETBAS~1.PDF

He is the author of these books
http://www.powells.com/search/DTSearch/search?author=John Watkinson

 

I think half the problem is that people with small monitors just aren't used to proper deep bass.
Having no deep bass will speed the music up but wheres the meat???

Curt

 

Love this quote from the end of the article...

I'd be interested to hear 7V's take on this article as he seems to understand the importance of phase in loudspeaker design.

 

The article seemed interesting, but, since most of us work with speakers that are not full-range phase-true, it still could be true (as a matter of practical fact) that the best balance of compromises is to have a separate sub. We just don't know, since this is an empirical question that might well be sensitive to situation.

One practical outcome for me is that I get cleaner and better bass from a separate sealed sub+mains than I do from the mains alone. Since my processor allows me to trim or switch off the sub remotely, it is an easy matter for me or anyone else to hear the difference. One of the reasons is that I can put the sub where the bass sounds best, whereas I can't move the mains round if I want to keep the right layout for a stereo stage.

 

i had a rel strata three. I liked the idea of it much more that the thing itself and wouldn't be tempted to go down the road again. although i love to try one of those velodyne things. don't really want one or need one though but would like to try it

John

 

For the record, I have a REL Storm III and it integrates seamlessly with my Castles.

I'd still like to hear a system that:

a) takes care of the major room modes;

b) doesn't cost a fortune;

c) doesn't kill the tune.

I live in hope that digital technology might yet deliver something.

In the meantime, the sub is staying.

 

Not so fast

I've read an article in which John Watkinson says "you can look at a loudspeaker, and if it has got a hole in it, you can immediately know it isn't going to work right." And he says pretty much that in the article for which you provided an URL. So, you can forget Transmission Lines which is what Wm was advocating.

Moreover, if Wm's Transmission Line required a crossover, then Watkinson has issues with those too! IIRC he's an advocate of active speakers coupled with all pass filtering for time alignment.

OK, well that means a sealed box active speaker - which is fair enough. Now, let's remember that resolution is a "pro audio" mag, so these folks are typically thinking about treated rooms which have a free (of reverberation) field monitoring position, where the room isn't time smearing the signal, giving the wavefront from the speaker a chance to reach you (mostly) unmoslested by the room so that you might have a vague chance to actually hear its linear phase

Finally, when you plug the hole in a speaker, you can make up for the loss of bass response by using a bigger cabinet. If you dig a little further on the resolution site, you'll find that the kind of speaker that they have in mind - which is capable of getting the time response they are advocating - is "flush fitted" (soffit mounted) with an internal volume of SEVEN HUNDRED LITRES

 

I've been down the sub route but never realy felt the thing integrated with the rest of the system......the bass just sound wrong ...impressive but wrong !

 

OK, I have to confess that the addition of entry-level sub to mid/high-level standmounts of different breeds is not perfect. It adds lower bass but not much more in sonic/soul. Its a pointer to what I'm missing ...

 

Personally I think the title answers its self. If your not happy with amps and speakers to start with you shouldn't be thinking about sticking a sub in, you'll never get it right. Subs should be something you add when everything else is exactly how you want it.
Like Wadia-miester et al said, get some decent floor standers or something. You'll get deeper bass and more low power too.

 

imo

If you have a large room and are looking for more low bass in music I'd sell the standmounts and buy speakers with larger bass cones.

If the speakers are about the right size for the room, and you're after some subsonics for movies and the occasional low bass note, then perhaps a sub.

thats me anyway

 

I'm grateful for the heads-up on the Velo DD series: pricey but interesting and serious. and for the various comments (alanbeeb is right about the Loving Voice, I still have the brochures on those and other standmounts seen/heard at the Scottish Show). I'm on a learning curve on this and appreciate that there are competing wisdoms. The proof must be in the listening, but my reasoning has been:

1. I like the sound of my standmounts (JML Electra 905s) but they have a floor at 40Hz (tho specified to 50Hz)

2. this is more noticeable the more it driven, as bass becomes more prominent

3. I believe, but will accept correction, that present set-up is fine for room size (15x15x10).
-- the opinion of visitors and myself is that existing sound is not bass light (except for listened-for floor), with concern that more bass might boom

4. bass reproduction benefits from dedicated/active speaker amplification, ie a sub, which given separate placement possibilities should enhance firmness

but

5. I have a sub for av purposes, but its an entry-level (Velo Vx10) and so not likely to be ideal for music

this leads me back to conclusion that any upgrade on the ampside is likely to mean amp+speakers (which is some cash). hence wander down the alternate 'add sub' route, which if it delivered firmer, deeper bass on the music then it would also upgrade the AV side.

Then there is the comparative matter of money & vfm for the two routes.

 

My current speakers are ported and claim a minus 3dB point of 30 Hz, and I still find value in a sub, ditton, for two reasons: the sub can go a lot lower and somehow it lends a sense of air and soundtage depth to things, as well as the actual low-end extension (not a boost of the mains bass); secondly as I said it gives more positioning flexibility relative to any problematic room modes.

The sub works for me because it is used for extension. It is best in music when I am not sure it is on until I turn it off. If I had a problem the quality of the existing bass then I wouldn't have got a sub to correct it. So: if you are satisfied with the quality of the bass in the existing speakers, bass extension from a quality sub can nevertheless be a revelation. If there is something wrong with the quality of the existing speakers' bass, a sub is probably not the way to correct them. IMHO.

I am upgrading to speakers which paradoxically don't go as low but have even cleaner bass (Linn Akurate 242). I would have been much more reluctant to take this step if I didn't already have the facility for bass extension, since once you have lived with what a good sub does for music (even for things like guitar and piano) it's difficult to live without one.

 

Don't do it. The 212 is better and works beautifully with a sub. The 242's bass is a bit bloated and doesn't integrate as well with a sub. Or so a couple of dealers have told me; one of them doesn't even carry the 242, he thinks the 212/Sizmik combo for the same money walks all over the 242.

 

I agree Steve.
Theres no right or wrong subs work for some and not for others.
Its all about preference as usual but you do need to spend quality time ie sometimes months to get it just right.
BTW i heard some Linn Akurate standmounts in a dem with all Linn gear unfortunately didnt get to listen to the music i liked all classical music but they seemed pretty impressive and certainly accurate sounding.
I thought the top end was a little in ur face and the sound was quite dry and lacked a bit of romance but that may well have been the Linn KIT.
Seemed promising though would love to try some at home

Curtis

 

Not necessarily, I've had a pair of sonus faber concertinos for about 4 years now. I've nearly upgraded them two or three times but decided not to (last summer I nearly spent £3K, glad I didn't) but each time I upgrade bits of my amps I'm amazed at how much more bass I can get out of them. They're quoted down to 40Hz or something but they'll go down far lower than that with no obvious roll off. Which is odd. Anyway, I *think* my point is its never that easy to just say 'this is the problem' with amps and speakers, without having tried other stuff in the system. Or I could just be waffling? Well anyway, I think it would be wise to try different combinations before you spend money.

 

Thanks for the warning, Markus, but I had a long session with 242s, 212s and Espeks as baseine last saturday. I didn't find the bass bloated at all - better than the Espeks in exactly the same set-up and room. Plus I get a demo pair of 242s for the same price as 212s on stands, so I think I will be OK. IF it doesn't sound as good as the demo did, it is down to the room since my set-up is actually better than the dealer could set up for me at the time .

Thanks for the warning though and apologies for this short cul de sac

Edited in:
Curt wrote "I thought the top end was a little in ur face and the sound was quite dry and lacked a bit of romance but that may well have been the Linn KIT."

We (SO was at least 50% responsible for the decision) thought that a little too, but we thought we would get used to it, and when we converted to active it cleared up nicely.

 

Interesting. Please tell us how you get along with the 242s, Steve.

 

FWIW, I have a B&W 675 sub, but only use it for movies. My Pre/pro allows me to put it in and out at will, and on music it just doesn't work for me. Could be my positioning of it, or it could be that I have Living Voice speakers which go pretty low.
Whatever the reason music just sounds less involving, and the sense of timing is far worse.
Love it for AV use though