Weltanschaung and HiFi (warning, contentious and wordy)

Folks,

The recent "Same old cable argument again..." thread again highlighted to me how much the whole discussions in audio are dominated by Weltanschaung (or religion if one so wants).

First, while every one shares a common "absolute" reality, between the actual Kantean "thing in itself" and how we react to it is perception. So what we percieve from absolute reality is our personal little universe and while we all share a certain degree of what I call consensus reality the area with a universal complete consensus are suprisingly small, even though a general broad consensus passing over differences in small details is fairly large.

But the bottom line is NO TWO PEOPLE PERCIEVE THE EXACT SAME ITEM/EVENT IDENTICALLY.

Secondly, large parts of our perception are formed by our general worldview. If we strongly believe in a given thing to be true our perception will gentley and unnoticable retouce what we percieve of universal reality so it fits better with our expectations. Someone who adheres to the old mode of viewing the universe and thus reality as newtonion, deterministic will percieve what he does of reality filtered by that basic stipulation to a degree much greater than such a person would wish to admit. Or as Nietsch puts it, "We are all much better artists than we give ourselves credit for!".

The Most laudable society of the illuminated seers of bavaria used to teach in one of the early grades the "law of the five", which had to be taken as complete and absolute statement of fatc and reality, namely that "all things happen in fives". The lower rank illuminatus would soon find endless confirmations of the law the of the fives.

At a much higher grade adepts where taught the true law of the fives, namely that all things happen singly, in twos, threes, fours, fives, sixes, sevens and innumerable other Chaney sequences, but that if we believe they happen in fives we will superimpose the desired pattern (all happens in fives) over reality and see all things that happen in fives and only percieve the "fives", when in fact things happen completely indeterministic.

How this relates to audio should be obvious, equally that DB Testing does not actually eliminate personal bias, it merely makes it presence known as strongly randomising factor, as perception struggles to impose the desired pattern of the individual over a fundamentally random set of data.

But there is another crucial concept here, that extends past perception and the law of the fives, one that is directly and inherently responsible for the lengthy and acrimonious as well as heated disputes. I call this for lack of a better term "moral affordability", in line with such terms as "moral depreciation" etc.

What moral affordability addresses is the moral/spiritual/psychological "cost" to an individual if this individual where to accept a given thesis presented to it as true.

Let us take an example, we have someone who has a traditional electronic enginneering background and who understands of physics just enough to inherently believe in a newtonioan universe, one in which action preceeds reaction, where all things are certain and so on. This person has clearly a LOT and I mean a LOT "invested" in this particular Weltanschaung, from the career to teh very understanding how the world works.

In order to accept a contention that in fact things are occouring that in empirical fact contradict this worldview in a small, unimportant and minor area this person would have to abandon the whole Weltanschaung held and that means throwing all this previous "investment", in other words the "moral cost" is very high and usually much higher than the individual is willing/able to afford. In other words, regardless of the truth or not of the thesis under discussion it must be rejected to avoid the whole house of cards comming down with it.

As this individual requires certainty and cannot accept uncertainty (remember, we have a believer in the newtonian universe) it becomes essential to not just reject, but to defeat, at least to the standards of the individual for "defeating a thesis" in public the thesis, irregardless of it's truth.

Once we are there and start throwing the root of all evil, namely the love of money into this any discussion is impossible, a shouting match is unavoidable.

And that is how the Weltanschaung of a given group gives rise to arguments endless and rather acrimonious in an area where what should happen is that we share our experiences with music and with the equipment used to record/reproduce it freely, aknowledging that the personal reality of others may diverge strongly from our own and both may diverge strongly from absolute reality.

If so indeed, it does not make a given experience less valuable, usefull and certainly anyone reasonably scientific (which inherently requires an open mind) would never dismiss any thesis flat out of hand and in turn CERTAINLY not dismiss anything and anyone remotely associated with the offending thesis out of hand.

Well, I'll leave it here. Maybe more in this upcomming shouting match and flame war, good thing I'm wearing asbestos underwear....

Ciao T

 

I find this very easy, don't try and convince people anything other than they Wish to believe, unless doing a home demo....................Thats a great way of getting some classic expressions.

 

That's all very nice, and probably completely correct, and not really very contentious in my opinion (although certainly wordy); I have always found it odd that some people seem have such black or white points of view on so many obviously subjective....err... subjects. This seems especially peculiar when it comes to audio gear - after all we're all using it to listen to music on and no-one expects everyone else to have the same taste in music as them, so why should we expect everyone to have the same tastes in equipment. It makes no sense to me.

......but if you like red sauce on your fried eggs instead of brown sauce, you're clearly an idiot. See, I can be very opinionated on some subjects, when I am certain that I am right.

Still, in the absence of public executions, fiery public arguments over bugger-all are cheap entertainment for the masses, and should be encouraged.

 

Hi everyone,
as a newcomer to this forum (and an electronics engineer by trade). I don't have a problem with the above view, I fully accept somethings cannot be readily explained, however what does get up my nose( or any other orifice of your choice) is when pseudo science is used to extoil the virtues of some piece of kit or accessory.
If you do something and it gives your listening experience a high, go for it, I may not agree with you, but thats what makes it interesting

Keep Listening !

 

Hi,

I'll try harder next time.

Sauce with Eggs. How disgusting! Clearly people who have sauce with eggs have no taste at all....

There is that. And given the current state of reality TV you are probably right. I'm just much more inclined to investigating what I cannot explain and fail to understand right now, instead of pelicanising it and trying to talk it away. My kind of entertainment....

Ciao T

 

Hi,

For the record, I do have an EE Degree, have worked in electronics from industrial to home and pro-audio, have designed a number of pro audio products, worked as recording & live sound engineer and have had (and have) input into a number of current domestic audio products as well as audio parts in the form of transformers (again pro & domestic) and have build/designed or at least modified beyond recognition all of my Audio system.

These day I do electronics and audio as a sideline, the day job is financial computer systems.

As hobbies I list rejected knowledge, esotheric physics, comparative religion, christian mysticism, japanese anime, intelligent scifi novels and movies.

Music and all things to do with it has allways been a serious obsession.

That for reference and to put my comments into context.

Ciao T

 

All good and highly commendable. Seriously, I do like to read educated explanations of how and why different components/materials or whatever can affect a systems performance, even if I don't always follow the physics. It's all good.

I don't always feel the need to investigate when I fail to understand something, I try to accept the experience and not to worry about it, but then I'm a lazy bugger! I guess my approach to hifi has been at a more basic level than a lot of members here; it's a 'suck it and see' kind of thing, rather than a scientific quest for musical purity (not that I wish to imply that there is anything wrong with a scientific approach, it's just not me).

Hence my posts tend to be shallow jokey affairs, as I simply don't know any better!

 

Hi,

I find we lack currently good explanations for too many items that too many people observe to be dismissed as "illusion" and "mass delusion". Right now we seem to be in audio like the Solarists Stanislaw Lem describes in the early pages of his book Solaris (the book rocks, that yankee film is so much pants).

If what I do not understand is potentially relevant to what I do commercially or for fun, I feel the need to at least empirically investigate and ask "is this just smoke or is there fire and if there is fire, how to bet get it going"....

Nothing is further from me than to turn my Music system into a scientific instrument. I do however insist that if people wish to do science or to appear to be scientif they get their science right.

Ciao T

 

The original film directed by Tarkovsky is great, never read the book. Might look out for it on ebay!

 

Hi,

Definitly look for it. Anything by Lem and A&B Strugatsky will suit you if liked the Tarkovsky Film.

Most relevant to try if you can find:

"Summa Technologica" Lem

"Inhabited Island" (english title "Prisoners of Power") A&B Strugatsky

Ciao T

 

which makes you the exact same as anyone else on this forum. When it comes to hi-fi you have to trust your ears and what's in between.

 

Hi,

Seems a partial but free translation into english of some of Lem's most intreaguing works is on line:

http://www.frankpr.net/Lem/Summa/contents.htm

http://www.lem.pl/cyberiadinfo/english/dziela/dziela.htm

Also, if you are interrested in A&B Strugatsky (another great book by them which was mangled by the Yankee's into a film is the superb "It is hard to be a god") I have a lot of the Enlish translations as e-book. PM me for a read (they are virtually impossible to get).

Ciao T

 

Mixing science with philosophy is a particularly good recipe for science-fiction.

 

What is esotheric physics?

Thorsten, I didn't realise you liked anime! I don't watch a lot now but I used to be a big fan and even started to learn how to draw it. I only really did that to prove to myself that I could so I think once I got reasonably good I stopped drawing.

What are your fav anime then? I love Chobits, Full Metal Panic, FLCL and one I don't quite remember the name of... Pumi Poumi? It's even more mad than FLCL. The girl in it is a voice actor for anime, and so her life and the anime she does the voice acting for start to merge very strangely!

Oh I managed to finally find the URL for my ollld website with some of my drawings on it if you are interested. http://www.geocities.com/fuzzey_door/

Some of the pics have unnecessary nudity, but thats what you get when you look at a 15yr olds drawings

As for cables, I don’t really care enough to make that switch box and the cables to try out. I presume you have a few cables that you think differ from each other considerably? If so then I’d like to have a listen to the difference.

I changed the cable on my AKG K1000 headphones from the supplied copper to a pure silver one and I heard a difference; it was less harsh. I then changed my CD interconnect from a quality copper one to a pure silver and heard no difference. I thought I was a believer, but now I just don’t know and I think you can get a far bigger and subjectively ‘better’ result from many other things in Hi-Fi.

 

Hi,

es·o·ter·ic (ĕs'ə-tĕr'ĭk)
adj.

Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an esoteric cult. See synonyms at mysterious.

Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people.

Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.

Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

I do. I tend towards the more serious features, less so the serials.

Recommended Anime:

Features

MD Geist I & II

Megazone

Akira

Wind of Amnesia

Perfect Blue

Fist of the Northstar

Serials

Doomed Megapolis

3 X 3 Eyes (the KYW personality I use over at DIYA is an homage there)

Keishin Heidan

Tenchi Muyo (yes, I know that is a bit overly sweet, but "I love Tenchi")

Some of these are not bad at all. Keep at it and you can get "otaku" standard sometime soon.... ;-)

Cool with me.

I could probably scare something up, but not really, I tend to give away a lot of small stuff (like cables) I no longer use, so I usually have around what I use....

Much worse is that my system is not really set up for easy cable changing, it's always a major operation....

Ciao T

 

Lol well I suppose that tells me what it is! Could you give me an example of this esoteric physics? Or wouldn't it then be esoteric anymore?

I think you might find we actually share a lot of the same 'rejected knowledge'. My mother is a complimentary therapist and over the many years I have been educated to ways which many people may find pretty 'strange' or unorthodox.

Akira and Perfect Blue are the only features I have seen from your list but I did watch a lot more series. I liked what I saw of Tenchi Muyo but as it was only on Cartoon Network I didn't get in to it because of the repeats and never seeing it from the beginning. I will embarrassedly admit that I got strongly into Dragon Ball Z at one point though! However it did get a little repetitive after a bit.

I'm not really very good at drawing, I just tried very hard! I know I can do it if I need to but as I have no use for it I don't really feel like it most of the time.

 

Hi,

An example would be the fringe of current quantum physics. Those are the areas where I get such notions as the "fictionality of electrons" from.

I share your shame and pain brother. Goku sure kicks butt.

I was onto DBZ for about 2 - 3 Month.... ;-)

Ciao T

 

Are you also into Dungeons and Dragons?

 

Hi,

Nah, never got too much into games other than chess (okay, there was that time when I was Notting Hill Gate Computer Exchange Doom Deathmatch champion).

Ciao T

 

Wow, heavy stuff. As you imply, we all hear differently, so we have our own 'world images' (i.e. weltanschauungen) which are influenced by environmental factors, mood, physiology and even mad things like room temperature, etc. Hifi fora seem to dwell on prophetic ontology (i.e. 'this is the BEST system') without taking the 'wider view' in an epistemological sense (i.e. 'this is A GOOD system; other systems are available.'). One man's meat is another's poison or some cliché springs to mind. In another regard, how do YOU know that the colour green that I see is that which YOU see - perception is individual and unique, and we have no reliable way of establishing true common ground.

However, putting Kierkegaardian ideology to one side, it is clear that you need to spend more time enjoying the music and less thinking about the system. As we all oughta, given we're here talking hifi and not elsewhere talking about the latest bands.