What is it that makes......

cables........YEAH RIGHT :gary: !

Given the heated discussions about cables/DBT:chunder: /Human perseptions/Fact v's Opinion could somebody possibly explain to me what makes tubes sound different from another tube of the same category.

There appears to be a plethora of designs and variations on those designs out there and after reading a link [here], posted by Joolsburger it would appear that, in a similar vein to cables, there are very subtle sound variations where there is little design variation.

I may be wrong but hey, I'll leave it to all you Bottleheads/necks/appendages out there to give us all your opinion .

 

You dont expect an orangy glowing tube to sound the same as a bluey, or a greeny, or a yellowy... :guiness:

 

i think some of it can be attributed to the plate design and micrphonics of

 

toobs?

Dont know why they sound different, Im not technical like that.

To my uneducated ears, they tend to either be - a little dull and anaemic - cheap chinese ones often.... or bassy and full - like a mullard or simillar, or a little brighter and more detailed .. american valves like philips etc, bright powerfull and a bit in your face - golden dragon, Sovtek and many russian.

I havent played that much yet with fancy types, such as mesh-plate 300bs and other exotica... but I will... cos its fun . A bit like an upgrade in a glowing golden bottle...its nice to be able to tailor your amp sound in this way.

Other people might have different perceptions on valves, and of course different ones get different results in different amp..but the above is my general feelings on toob rolling ...

Interesting what PB said about cheap nasty valves in his new Xcan3. Why they cant give the option of a valve upgrade at POS I dont know.

3 cheers to MF for selling more valve products than anyone else though.


:MILD: :MILD:

 

Hi,

Valves are like a lot of things in life. They can be made to various standards.

A valve consists of an Anode (plate), a Cathode and a grid or grids (depending on type of valve). For example the cathode needs to be of a material that can emit elctrons when heated. The quality of the material & design is very important. Tungsten with Thorium added can be used. Also a Nickel tube coated with Barium & strongtium can be used. The design of the gate & anode are also important. Valve electon transmission works best in a vaccum so this needs to be done well.

Assembly is very important as well. Some designs are just built to higher standards & tolerences to others. An ECC88 should all measure to the same broad parameters but the way they are put together, materials used etc could be all diffferent.

These will lead to better working parameters such as low microphonics, low distortion & low noise.


Some of the valve making standards did seem to drop in the 70s & 80s hence the demand for new old stock valves of yesteryear.

Have a look at this

site for an inside look at valves.

I have tried various valves in some of my bits of equipment. At the moment I'm trying out some Electro Haronmix gold grids 300b valves in my Border Patrol amp instead of the Western Electric 300Bs.




SCIDB

 

What do you think of the new 300b's dean?? As good as the Western Electrics?

I might need some new 300bs for my new border patrol also.

It will be fixed up and ready by next week hopefully.

I was thinking of some mesh plates (below). Have you tried them? what did you think?.. what do u think of the 300bs youve tried so far?... this will be my 1st 300b amp... so I havent tube rolled with 300bs before.




Chris

 

Hi Chris,

The Electro Harmonix gold grids 300b valves are quite good. I don't think they are up to the standard of the Western Electric 300B which I normally use. They do have good the dynamics & detail. They don't have that ultimate magic which the Westerns have. BTW the Western Electric 300B valves were the ones used at the Bake off at your house. The harmonix are excellent value for money.

The downside of the Western valves is the cost. I have a spare set but I picked up the Harmonix quite cheaply. I do recommend you try some. I got mine from here.

This bloke is based in Hong Kong. I have purchased off him twice & both times the valves have arrived within 5 days. The normal Uk price is around £150 each.

I have not tried the TJ Mesh ones but I have heard good things about them. Border Patrol recommend them Also Roy Gregory of HiFi+ waxed lyrically about them when I spoke to him about the Border Patrol amps he had reviewed. I hope to try some at some stage.

Also the look at the Golden Dragon 300BM which are another mess anode design. These have had good write ups.

Here some more opinions on the different 300B valves.

http://www.worldaudiodesign.co.uk/pdf/supp65300bvalve.pdf

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/channel/ch300b/

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1201/300b/

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/BJ_TJ_trip/TJfactory.htm

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/tube_supplies/tj_tubes.html


SCIDB

 

Whilst I also don't understand the fascination with valves, I would think the difference is akin to the difference between variants of transistors - spare me the technical rebuttals please!!

Having said that, the best amp I ever heard was the GakuOn(spelling?) - £80+k!

Reckon I could have haggled though

Rgds,

Lee

 

Tee hee - love it.

It all reminds me of Tim de P. when he said that you could get tube circuits to sound like a solid state circuits and vice versa. It all depends on circuit design. Then on top of that you can tune the sound of a device by tube rolling.

Why do different tubes have different sonic characteristics, even when they have similar specs and are used in the same circuit? Don't ask me - they just do.

 

The legendary AudioNote Ongaku and Gaku-On - never was quite of the difference between the two. Roughly £80-£100K. Everyone I know who's heard one says it's the best amp they've ever heard by miles so they must have got something right - you'd hope so too at that price!

Michael.

 

I need two of them (one for the bass speakers). Do you think I could get a discount?

 

Chris,

If you want to try tube rolliing use a soft surface - they're quite fragile

I'm using Svetlana SV300B. Got mine from www.conusaudio.com, very helpful, efficient and well packed! About £50 per valve. Definately worth a punt.

Jeff

 

7_V... cash is king!


But seriously, just temporarily of course, the GakuOn(?) was fronted by a Voyd Reference/IO and the Audio Note transformery thingamijig(?) with AN prototype speakers (not sure whether they ever made it to market). The sound was simply awesome - my partner at the time was wary of the looks I was giving her - totalling up the money I could get for her body parts ( ooh...topical!!). Peter Q*^£$@! (terrible memory for names) conducted the demo... conducted seems apt... the sound was realistic in the extreme.

 

Dean,

Yeah I noticed. They did sound excellent. We actually had 3 different brands, the WE, my Svetlanas and JJs in the WAD gear ! Missed opportunity maybe?? But it was a busy day.

 

Qvortrup?

 

7_V .. Thanks mate. Re-reading my post does Peter er...Q an injustice. He was an absolute gentleman, with impecable taste in music, and the wonderful air of a man who knows, and I meen really knows, he's onto a good thing. I cannot over state how good that system was! In fact, it was that good, that you wished that you hadn't heard it - does that make sense?

 

As I understand it, MR Q is not the one who makes *those* amps. The Real Audionote (much dissed by my tube lovin' acquaintances here) is made by mad-as-a-hatter Kondo.
Whose site is here: http://www.audionote.co.jp/
The Japanese tubophiles I know do not not believe in w*ankywire and are quite happy to use crocodile clips and zipcord for connecting their beautiful creations to their horny speaker systems. Which is probably one reason they don't go for Kondo - his philosophy goes against the grain here, but is pefectly in tune with the lucrative Euro and US markets

 

Joel,

I was making no comment on the value, validity or viability of the product, merely a laymans observation.

Lee

 

Same here
If you get a chance, try listening to some of the really big cinema horns / Altecs. NOt perfect, but well worth seeking out for a good listen IMO.

 

I've heard a very small handful of valve amps (which were all considerably cheaper than the likes of an Ongaku) that I'd like to take home with me, the high-end Audionotes IMHO wouldn't feature anywhere in that take home list I'm afraid. Heard an Ongaku back in the early 90s at a show with Voyd Reference t/t and huge Snell speakers, definitely IMO not £40k's (as it cost then) worth of amp, but then at the sort of price level I believe we're talking about trinket value rather than actual value for money. Not that them I'm against the if you've got it flaunt it mentality, but it's just a mentality I myself identify with - if I can get the same for less I will.

Mind you, I'd not say no to a Voyd Ref t/t or 3 if anyone were throwing a freebie my way!

Very interesting that Joel. Are Jap audiophiles generally less into their snake oil products then?

After all, with the top end and SE Audionote amps, the majority of the cost allegedly goes on solid silver wiring throughout, the wire itself being sourced from a particular mine in Italy IIRC. :ffrc: