What makes a system sound 'fast?'

Or 'slow' for that matter.

There must be an electrical reason - or is it down to tonal balance? Brighter, more dynamic sounding systems sounding faster as opposed the warmer, softer sounding coming across as slower?

It's just that with the mucking about with amplifiers I've been doing recently, they've shown a very marked difference in 'pace'.

It's been bugging me for years but now I can demonstrate it with 100% success to folk who have no interest in 'hi-fi' at all - so marked is the difference. I tell them to ignore whether one amp is more detailed, has more bass etc etc and 'feel' what the music's doing. All source/speaker/cables are kept as is.

One amp is the more detailed (making you listen right 'into' what's going on), with a much bigger soundstage - the other slightly harsh and midrange-biased, less detailed but 'tighter' (if that makes sense?).

Why is it doing this?
Is the more detailed amp making me take more time over what's going on and therefore diverting my attention from the portrayal of tempo?

 

It's not just amps. It can be speakers too. My ATC amp is capable of breathtaking pace through the Castles but when used with ATC SCM12's it sounded like the CD player was running slow (which is impossible).

Recent experience suggests that the quality of the mains feed to amps and CD players can have a big effect on perceived pace

 

Transient response. All I'll say...

 

Yeah, definitely down to amps and speakers. I find Rotel amps are quite fast and dynamic particularly for their price. Rega speakers likewise.

Pair the two up, and its like snorting a line of coke.

 

So what's that mean?

Paul

 

Paul,

Maybe superior rise and fall time of the amplifers bandwidth possibly?

 

Let us not forget the source. A Naim CD player from CDX upwards is rather quick off the mark.

 

hmmm I put it down to simplicity of design by and large, the less transistors, the faster, mostly.
I actually don't know.

 

It's fascinating isn't it? The truth is that some components do sound fast and some don't, I always found a good Linn deck for instance very taut and quick, while a Pink Triangle would sound slower and less purposeful. I don't think anyone really knows why this speed thing happens and doubtless the objectivists are measuring us up for straightjackets as I type, but here are a few possible reasons,

Amplifiers- Good fast power delivery, fast rise time, good damping factor, large power supply for rated output, none use of mosfets. Dives for cover.

Speakers- Well damped and aligned bass, highish efficiency, light drivers, simple crossover, well designed cabinet.

CD players- Haven't the foggiest but the effect exists, Naim and Micromega seem to know but aren't telling.

Turntables- Good speed stability, refusal to slow under load (dynamic wow) good mains isolation, well engineered bearings stopping the amplifier having to deal with rubbish.

On this speed issue, I think everyone should be made to live for a week with a really well set up pair of Linn Kans. Initially most react to these little flyers with horror questioning if they are even Hi Fi in any accepted definition of the word. After a few days listening people tend to "get it" and when you put back the speakers they much preferred initially, you get comments like " a bit slow aren't they?" Some use Kans forever and refuse to upgrade, while others go on a lifetime quest to get the speed and the imaging and tonality. I am told that Rehdekos are even snappier than the Kans but have not had sufficient experience of them to confirm this.

 

fast? when a system doesnt have much bass it sounds faster IMO.

Bass frequencies tailing around longer as they do, if you have a system without much leaving just the pacey sounding mids and highs....

that'll do it IMO

 

It's good to be back on familiar territory - with the nancy-boys getting a dig in here-n-there!

An objectivist is smart enough not to try a reply to <What makes a system sound 'fast?'>, because the answer is uncertain, unprovable, and too long.

 

Lack of bass overhang, as has been said, therefore largely a product of the speakers in question, or perhaps the amp and speakers. Perceptions that some CD players are faster than others and the like must be entirely psychoacoustic IMO.

-- Ian

 

Many good points Paul. As Chris points out, bandwidth limiting or perceived limiting will appear to speed things up for those that want that effect.

Low bass by definition will give the perception of slowing things down, but of course is essential for proper recreation of acoustic spaces and timbre. So I guess you have to choose between the two? For me, many FE systems are simply artificially snappy and unnatural, but I apreciate that many do find them exiting.

 

Amplifiers- Good fast power delivery, fast rise time, good damping factor, large power supply for rated output, none use of mosfets. Dives for cover.

Oi!!! The MOSFET-infested ATC amps are 'fast' as fcuk so ner!

 

Fair summary Merlin. Unfortunately, IME, most speakers that do a decent job at low bass muddy the midrange too much in the process, at least, they do in most normal UK domestic listening environments. (I'm interested to hear how your shock and awe Proacs do.)

Fast systems are easy to position, have good neighbourly behaviour, and can do a very reasonable job of playing a wide variety of material, they can be good all-rounders. The ATC setup I had for a year was like this, there wasn't much I felt it didn't play well. By contrast, quite a few of the fuller-range systems I have heard only really excel on certain material, on other things there's too much bass, or the drums are far too big, or whatever. The only thing "fast" systems lack is the final suspension of disbelief, i.e., they never sound exactly like live music, so you always know you're listening to a hi-fi. But they can be a good compromise, for reasons that are not to do with "excitement" alone.

-- Ian

 

Agreed Ian.

If you have genuine bass extension, and the room interacts badly with the first mode (typically 30hz-40hz), then the overhang generated will of course lead to temporal problems that screw the transparency of the mids.

Having said that, I listen to a lot of bass heavy stuff, and I am happy to accept the compromise. The ideal is I guess the sub/sat setup, which gives the ability to switch the bass units off for certain music types.

 

I see were describing the Towshend syndrome, could this be the 'Temporal incursion effect' Aka Boom & Tizz?

 

what makes a system fast?

Uuuuhmmmmmmmmm.

PLACEBO ?????

Sorry, I don't know what fast means. My system doesn't seem to move.

I'd better check tonight though.
You're making me thinking: I don't even know if my system is 'fast'. :cry: Damn Titian, you bought again something without checking out if it is really good. :grrr: :gatling: :SWMBO: :gatling:

 

Re: Voicing

Good point and too many large drive units are either used in an underdamped alignment or are not properly matched to adequate amplification.

My JBL's have an overdamped alignment with a power amp claiming a damping ratio of 4000:1. The result is very controlled bottom end, but because of the extension, it is not what most would call fast. They time better than anything I have heard though

 

I find something rythmically quick makes the music infectious and fun.

some things even make the music sound as though its playing slower, and I;m not imagining it, its an odd effect.

Interesting, in general apart from ATC amps, I haven't really liked mosfets myself, perhaps because there are less of them, too. Can't fault a good bipolar.