What price the big steps ?

Is there consensus as to which price steps represent the biggest audible changes ? The question is to do with hearing things in a 'whole new way' rather than the incremental/upgrade 'that sounds a bit better' approach. I am happy with my current speakers at £500 ish but have started looking for something for a bigger room. There is plenty in the sub £1k bracket but things seem to get more interesting after £1500, then presumably another jump after that. Given the number of mortgage worthy systems amongst members just wanted to get a view on what the stopping off points are along the way. Not just a question of speakers, turntables seem to get serious at about £700, is there a benchmark for each component in it's price bracket ?

 

Interesting question. In my limited experience loudspeakers have the most variable and easily identifiable sound compare to other toys. Even it the £500-700 price range there might be few more one could try to audition before going up market. If you have found the tonal sound that you like but wish to extend the lower frequency range then adding one of these newer generation of sub might provide surprising improvement as it actually improve the whole presentation and appearant sound stage.

Then there is the question of what is the reference are you using as the benchmark. For some it is an arbitary bogee factor. For me it is how close it is to the live acoustic experience in the nearby RNSO concert hall during the same evening. It is all relative. Enjoy the pursuit to the undefinable goal.

 

if you take as a given that price is no garuntee of quality then generally ime price groups tend to be:
up to 200 ukp
then up to 1000 ukp
then up to 2500 ukp
then up to 5k
then whatever you are willing to pay.
in general these price points are the 'big' steps however as with most things in life this isn;t set in stone and you do get kit that to some punches above it's weight whilst to others it's sorely lacking. ymmv. i'm sure some will dissagree but such is the nature of the beast.
cheers

 

would agree with that, but I still think there is a coupla steps above particularly with speakers, I reckon 8K and then 12k then above. but agree with everything else you have said Ju

 

ak,
i feel that at over 5k you are deep into personal preference territory and the law of diminishing returns is vicious.
for example merlin loved his d100's and would have kept them if he could i'm sure. i wouldn;t have given them a second look, as, even though their bass was wonderful the midrange sounded like fingers down a blackboard to me. at this price, kit tends to focus on certain things, and it becomes too subjective as to whether the extra 'n' thousand you are spending is worth it. again all imho.
cheers


julian

 

Its an interesting point regarding the price point at which hifi equipment becomes esoteric.

Perhaps its just below the 1k mark where you seldom escape from the old recipe of ..

a one box cd player
a solid state amp
a box speaker with cones.

The smaller mark up, a wish to appeal to a broad cross section, and necessarily low production costs all so frequently limit variety.

I think you have to look at smaller niche suppliers for originality at that kind of price point.

The hard thing regarding matching price against performance are individual sonic preferences.

Mike's new DAC, small valve manufacturers, imports from the far east, the availability of used and vintage equipment for low prices, the ability of some suppliers to sell to direct are all examples of price v performance falling over.

 

that'll be me then !

Moving from a 20 year old £100-£150 per box (TT in those days) to a £500-£600 per box current (CD) system the changes were quite straightforward and 90% of the time I spent auditioning was spent in swapping speakers. Result was the 'big step' that I was after, and the collection was duly re-discovered. Maybe that first 'big step' is never repeated ?

The reason for my question was the (naive) belief that as you spend more everything gets better, up to the point where 'better' is too personal then everything just gets more personal.

wolfgang (spirited away - wonderful film)
yes 'live acoustic' is the benchmark of sorts.

But. Have had an opera singer sing in my living room - great but you wouldn't want that sound every day ! The thing that I think I want to get closer too in playback is the humanity in the sound. All those little things that tell you that a real live person was responsible, but that doesn't mean I want them standing there.
Having heard a few speakers up to £2500 and even some B&W at £15000+ the thing that struck a chord above was 'a box speaker with cones.' No matter how good a standard speaker is at 'dissappearing' is that feeling of sound being projected towards you inevitable ? What I'm after here is music happening in a space rather than being injected into it. Maybe this isn't a price issue at all but more a different approach issue ? Although, as has been said, those different approaches don't kick in 'till a bit further up the price ladder.

Suggestions ?

 

I think so. Audiophoolery aside, with electronics you slam very hard up against diminishing returns fairly early on IMO and IM(limited)E - by the time you're in the region of a carefully-spent £1000 / component you really aren't going to get much more out of your system, because CD as a format is pretty robust and because amplification is quite a well-understood problem. Top-performing speakers OTOH cost serious money in engineering terms, and hence there are big gains to be made up to much higher price levels.

 

Disagree with you there Pete, reckon the diminishing retruns happen when you start spending over £5k-£8K then you are looking at different presentations, but a £5K cdp is way different to a £1k one, it's in the fine details like the texture and the timing, dynamics, much more beliveable when you start spending more, although there are products around that don't always behave as the others at the same price point, some better and some worse

 

Well I'm not going to fight with you, but I'll just say that I'm standing by my position. Of machines I've had in my system, there was only a very subtle difference between my NAD and a £100 Cambridge Audio or £300 Marantz, and I haven't ever heard anything elsewhere to convince me otherwise either. And FWIW the available measurements would suggest that audible differences are likely to be subtle, and of course there are the blind-test results showing that audiophiles can't distinguish with 100% certainty between a Sony portable and a £four-figure hifi deck.

 

Not fighting Pete, the differences are one of extra dynamics, detail texture, balance, if the differences are very subtle, why did you not keep your cambridge or marantz, put your nad againts a cd player above 2.5k and then tell me the differences are subtle, small differences in so much as most of the instruments etc can be heard on the cheaper machines, but the attack and decay and the definition is waaaaay better as you start spending more.

 

Well I guess there is not much more to discuss on this forum.

CDPs : all sound the same, get a £100 diy jobbie
Cables : no possible differences, stick with cables from our friend mr Patch
Amplifiers : Get a Rotel, it null tests perfectly. Anything ese is a downgrade.
Equipment supports : no measurable differences therefore are irrelevent.

Speakers : Ah we can discuss these. Phew what a relief. I was getting worried there for a minute.

I often wonder why I bother even coming on here tbh.

 

Prehaps Pete, some Audiophiles are somewhat flawed, in their reasoning
I would like to point out, not all people with large value systems are Audiophiles or Bell end bashers (willy wavers) but serious music lovers, who just wish to have the most complete sound they can.
Believe me on this, they can hear a sparrows fart across a crowded dance floor @ 2 in the morning, with the cerwin Vegers' giving their 2.5 foot cone exscution best, and they KNOW exactly what they are/arn't hearing, they haven't got golden ears or esp, they just know what they like, and will try whatever to accquire, but trust me these people really do know
These guys are beyond anal, but hey their systems are if that makes them happy, why are we to worry.
Others are more than grinning from an awia midi system, its just what floats your boat, but to suggest these guys 'are hearing phsyco-acoustic phantom's' is akin to saying the scots are spendthrift
I'll be honest and say even when I'm demoing, I can't hear a difference sometimes, while the customer is smiling from ear to ear and vice verse, we all precieve things ina different light, what I look for in my musical reproduction, you may find a serious turn off.
It takes a indivduals to be indivdual, and say what they feel, and not what they are EXPECTED/ANTICIPATING to hear, just be true to yourself, not your mate/mags/or pose factor.
Me I just lust after big black boxes, so just spank me

 

Reading your first couple of sentences, neil, i thought you were turning into a sceptic, too many of them around already, hows your new sub?, or do they all sound the same too?

 

i am safe with the sub, as I can measure it and keep the anal brigade happy

The sub is excellent btw. It elevates the system to a whole new performance level. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in having a full range system that can actually play music.

 

I kept the Cambridge, still have it in fact - the Marantz I borrowed for a week, so it was never mine to begin with.

It was mainly irrational shiny box lust that led me to buy the NAD and I do still love it for that alone, although to be fair it does sound rather good too (I said the differences were subtle, not zero, though I couldn't swear I'm not imagining most of it ).

I was just a bit bored tonight, but I seem to have prodded a few nerves here...

 

Big steps = Expensive, I should coco, I have size 13 feet, trust me eeven the cheapo's are dear

 

maybe these funny shaped things at Walrus
http://www.walrus.co.uk/duevel/duevel.htm
they radiate the sound in all directions rather than straight at you. Placement might be fun. Never heard them myself.

Or maybe Electrostatics? They definitely work for me!

 

Which £5K CD players are able to do this?

 

Mine!, there will no doubt be others.