when is bass "big"?

having just aquired some Audio Physic Spark,I was interested in the reviews on the web from users (about 15 so far I have found),mostly in America.

the "weakness" as far as these users were concerned,was a lack of low down or "big" bass

I find this astonishing having listened to the speakers for only 3 hours

I do not have any extensive HIFI experience,my previous speakers being Mission and B&W,but just how "big" do these people,or anyone else for that matter,want base to go?

Also,i am not a muscian,so is this desire based on geeky "well,we want the lowest base possible so we know we can't go any lower",or a genuine desire to replicate the music as accurately as possible?

The Sparks seem fine to me!!

 

Depends on the genre of music you listen to mostly. For most rock, pop and jazz music (with obvious exceptions, such as dub and some electronic and dance music) most people are talking about mid-bass when they talk about deep bass, since most of the instruments used don't, in reality, produce any real low bass. If, OTOH, you're fond of orchestral or organ music, you'll know what deep bass really is.

It always bemuses me that so much hi-fi talk seems ultimately to come down to how low one's speakers go. A peculiar form of willy-waving IMO.

-- Ian

 

Without wishing to defend the Yanks on this one, it's worth noting that the average size of the USA room is a fair bit bigger than those in the UK. Therefore, a speaker used in a 18x12 UK room may produce plenty of bass but put it into 30x20 open plan USA room and, all of a sudden, it may seem a bass light.

Matt.

 

Move away from England (particularly the South), and you may find larger rooms. Then you can get some real bass (but obviously not in my case).

 

Far better than waving a peculiar form of willy surely?

 

It's all willy waving when you get down to it - why do you think there's so few women into the nuts'n'bolts of hifi?

Anyway, I still put it all down to the use of small drivers in UK speakers (in general).. That means lots of clever trickery to get any low bass at all (i.e. below 40Hz). Why not just use a slightly bigger driver, keep the trickery and then you've got proper low bass.
It's all designer nonsense - I blame Habitat.

 

"willy waving"
"I blame habitat"
"move to America"



so big bass is another pointless quest,unless your wallet is a bottomless pit or you turn into a Knight who says "ni"

I dont like dance music,Fat Bob Slim DJ bloke is the nearest I get,and he gets into the CD once a year when i flick through the CDS for the annual clear out

 

Apart from the room size difference, I would reiterate musical preference is a major factor. I like a broad range of music, but one core objective for me is to recreate (as best as I can) some of the bass experienced at Roots/Dub dancehall events or the Electro Voice system at the Hacienda. Naturally a part of both of these experiences is the chest cavity resonating, "am I having a bass induced heart attack?" sensation which is not possible for me to achieve at home, but nevertheless I want something like it at least.

I would add that I think a system which can produce deeper frequencies does add something to music which isnt necessarily "bassy". A kind of atmosphere which isnt quite there when the system doesnt extend much.

Just FYI, I've just managed to get a pair of mint Kef Reference Model 107/2 from 1994. They extend 20Hz to 20KHz (+- 2 DB). It seems there arent many speakers with this objective made any more. Ah I should also add I havent listened to them yet, in fact I have nowhere to put them - they'll be going into storage , but one day... :JOEL:

 

Now that the BBQ season is approaching, try out your speakers in the rear garden.
Free from room limitatons, you will be able to hear what your speakers are really capable of.

 

I'm afraid BM the sheep would be upset if I did that

 

I think 'part' of the chest thumping, and its kind of nice when you get it, is not totally due to depth, its volume. I have still to find a domestic speaker that really does good bass. ATCs weren't the answer for me, neither were proac response 3s, not suprising considering they are 7", and i suspect any proac inc response 4s can't really do bass, as they are only 9". I supsect you need at least 12", pref 15 or even 18"
mewants some BIG jbls.

I suspect the answer also lies in pmc mb1s, and if they don't do bass I will give up the search and curse

FYI have a look at genelecs top speaker. These are now better thought of in the industry than ATC, they are now THE premier speaker, truly a rolls royce at a price. 2 18 inchers and 1000s of watts of active amps. a cool 35k

http://www.professionalaudio.com/professionalaudio/VIII/1036.htm

PA speakers are designed to be sensitive(light cone, more colouration, powerful magnets, and to go loud(built strong, strong glues (heat), and these mean they can't really go as low as heavier 'hifi' speakers. What they have in common is loudness and size

 

I take your point regards volume. The EV bass bins at Hac had four 18" cones each, each cone faced one side of the box with the magnets almost meeting up in the middle. There were two of these bins on each channel, with the mid/treble units on the wall above them. The effect was excellent in terms of bass but interestingly they were not stupidly *loud* like some PA systems which essentially pound you into jelly.

I would add the other *good* club systems I have encountered were similarly not stupidly loud.

In each of the two bass sections of the 107/2 there are two 10" sub cones, in line. The bass unit is physically completely separate from the mid/treble unit, which sits on top connected by an XLR lead. The bass ports vent upwards, infront of the mid/treble unit in order to provide cohesion. They are also 90 db/1 watt sensitivity!

I do agree though, that Hz depth is no replacement for sheer volumnal slam regarding recreation of PA like sound, though you can sometimes experience a psycho-acoustic *belief* that the volume and slam are greater than they really are if the bass is deep, controlled and transparent - at least that been my experience.

However an EV at home system wouldnt achieve all the other objectives I seek - "here's my stick now where's the moon?"

 

Well, I'll wave my willy yet again. The only domestic speakers I've heard which do proper 'hit you hard in the guts' bass, are the ATCs. But they cut off at 34Hz (anechoic?). Isobariks do a watered-down, wuffley, warm & diffuse audiophile version of bass (and come from the era when all speakers were quoted by manufacturers as having a 20-20 response) but they don't punch anywhere near as hard, and they lack dynamic headroom.

I don't know whether ATCs have been superceded as 'the best' or not, and I would suspect that that would be a matter of opinion. They are good enough for prestigious people like the Royal Opera House Covent Garden, Chandos, and Astoria/Pink Floyd (and many others) and they are more than good enough for me.

You do need a large room to get convincing bass without setting off room modes.

 

Most 'Big' bass is mistaken for room interaction/nodes and wobbly drivers, insufficent amplifer powers.
True 'Bass' is very difficult to achieve, ime only a handful of systems I've listened to achieve this, my own not included.

 

everything not established as justified true belief is an opinion!!

Bub you may be able to shed on volume vs depth as causing pressure and resonance in the thoracic and abdominal cavities?

 

Its really not a will waving exercise for me, its just one of those objectives I have had for years but only recently started getting a chance to explore. I cant comment yet whether the 107s will have sufficient slam though I would add they do differ somewhat from many of the *other* loudspeakers from the 70's and 80's claiming 20-20K FFR. True they were born in a different period, but I would argue things havent necessarily improved (for me anyway) in speaker design in that last 10 years (in someways naturally there are improvements). Again whether you would like the same equipment probably comes down to your music tastes, but have you heard a pair?

 

Bloody hell, we agree at last - about bass of all things! Wonders will never cease. Or should I worry?

 

LoL. I think its WM who should start worrying

 

No I haven't. Good speakers will play any type of music equally well. Mine have 12" drivers, each with a dedicated, matched 200 watt amplifier behind them, and so-called 'super linear' magnet technology which ensures that the coils never escape from the magnetic gap. Or something. They seem to work reasonably well. John used to 'fire' them out of his French windows into the garden, and told me that you could still feel their 'punch' (on-axis) from about 100 yards away.

 

Mmmm I must admit I havent explored ATC's. Sounds like I definitely should. Which actives do you use?