Whither SACD?

My mate Simon was banging on about how closely a £300 SACD player (playing SACDs) ran his MF Trivista bling machine (spinning CDs). I was wondering whether anyone here has gone down the SACD (or DVD-A) route and what their experience has been like.

Though I'd a very good cd player, I'm always taken by the gap between decent cd and decent vinyl replay, and wonder if one of these new formats makes sense. I'm concerned that there's not enough choice of music to buy for it, and that perhaps (as with many CDs) the mastering is the limiting factor, not the 'delivery format'. After all, I've heard some CDs sound truly great (with sound I could live with forever) whilst others sound pretty bad - which makes me think that most of the time modern engineers are barely stretching the limits of CD, so SACD/DVD-A isn't going to help - or is it?

Your thoughts, please...

 

I've probably said this before, if you are not into classical music then don't bother with SACD as there is so little software.

If you are heavily into classical then there lots of good stuff available and plenty of new releases coming out. Some of the best SACDs I've heard are 1950s and 1960s recordings rematered into DSD, the sound is just amazing. One or two of the best sounding recording in my collection are early experimental stereo recordings made in 1954 - over fifty years old. But a lot of good new recordings being made too.

 

I'm in total agreement with this statement. I bought a Sony/dvd/sacd player when they first came out and thought sacd was pretty good. I subsequently switched to a Denon DVD2900 and the sacd performance on this machine is excellent. However I like classical and about 80% of my sacd collection (around 60 titles) is classical.

There are some attempts to change this, Snow Patrol and the new Goldfrapp album are on sacd but the cynic in me thinks may be more for surround sound than actually better 'stereo' sound.

As for DVD-A, which the Denon can do, I have 2 discs really struggle to find anything I like on the format and can't judge the sound quality from the 2 I have. I don't trust these new Dualdisks too many hifi comapnies have issued statements saying 'at you own risk'.

 

Hi,

A few "FYI" comments first.

I do not "like" Digital.

I modify CD, SACD and DVD-A gear.

My personal "owned, paid for and allways in the system" Player is based around a heavily modded Pioneer DVD player that plays DAD.

I own several SACD's, a few CD's and tons of vinyl.

Now on to my comments.

Having heard in studios, at the mastering stage, as well as recording I find the DSD Format (which underpins SACD) slightly better, subjectively than standard CD but 96 or higher sample rate PCM drastically superior.

What that refers to is simply how close each methode comes to a "wire" and how "pleasant" the unavoidable deviations from "wire" are.

Past that come producers, recording engineers, replication plants etc.

The bottom line is that 99% of all CD's do not push the limits of CD as format, having heard a lot I find a really maxxed out CD Player significantly superior (subjectively) to any average SACD/DVD-A player.

In other words, a 3D Sonics modded CD Player (Shanling CD T-100 based) trashes a 3D Acoustics SACD Player (Shanling SCD T-200 based) while playing the CD Layer with the SACD Player playing the SACD layer.

But equally, a 3D Sonics SACD Player (Shanling SCD T-200 based) playing the SACD or even CD Layer will spank majorly a 3D Acoustics CD Player.

On DVD-A the software is so spares it is so far not worth, the stuff I have heard where so bad recordings that they where wasted on using even CD, they would be fine in 32KHz/12Bit, 44.1KHz/16Bit would already overkill.

So, the key issue is recording quality over format. A Reference Recordings HDCD outclasses the best Philips SACD's on classical, both players being equally maxxed out.

Ciao T

 

John, a simple answer is that you won't find a multi-format player nearly as satisfying as your Resolution (or my Densen) until you're in about 4K Ayre territory (the Ayre certainly changes your mind about what DVD-A can do). Having said that, the Philips 963 is a nice way to enjoy SACD for 120 quid (no longer available, the replacement is up for review in Plush, I believe - see pfm). I agree that SACD is a waste of time unless you like Classical. The format sounds vinyl-like but that doesn't mean it sounds like proper vinyl.

BTW, I feel particularly smug since my local East End charity shop sells a lot of the vinyl being remastered for 50p a pop.

 

The problem with SACD and DVD-A is that the music industry has chosen once again to use the new technology to milk us by getting us to re-buy all our music in the new format at a 50% premium.

The music industry half got away with this with CD (once the players became good enough) but eventually had to lower prices (and stop LP production) for CD to really go mainstream.

Those who care about sound quality realise that they have been had with CD. They will not lightly be had again.

Those who don't care much about sound quality will not pay a 50% premium.

If the music industry had released SACD (or DVD-A) discs at the same price as CDs, one of those formats would now be mainstream and a huge success story as people would be starting to replace their CDs.

All the while the music industry persists in trying to milk us, these new formats are effectively dead.

Whither SACD?

More like wither SACD

 

All my Classical SACDs have cost under a tenner and if you hunt you can find more or less any release for the same as the CD.

 

I Love some of my SACDs and have often felt that they offer what I always hoped CD would do. However, many SACDs have failed to exceed the performance offerd by the plain CD issue.....

Recently the whole thing got turned on it's head by the arrival in my system of a Wadia 830, which offers the best digital sound I have heard at home.

I can't wait to see what WM can do with it...

Darren

 

... ruin it ?

 

Alex....you bitch

 

Thanks Alex

 

alanbeeb - sounds intriguing, could to specify a few examples for me to try and pick up? Cheers

 

I'd wager that these recordings sound better than any modern recordings on redbook CD, never mind that they are themselves legendary performances.

On the Living Stereo Label (RCA/BMG):

Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra/Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta. Chicago Symphony, Fritz Reiner, rec. 1955. 82876 61390 2

Brahms - Piano Concerto No.1, Artur Rubinstein, Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony rec. 1954 82876 66378 2

Ravel - Daphnis et Chloe, Charles Munch, Boston Symphony, rec 1955 82876 61388 2

Sibelius/Glazunov/Prokofiev - Violin Concertos, Jascha Heifitz, Reiner, Chicago Symphony rec 1959, 1963 82876 66372 2

R. Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra, Ein Heldenleben, Reiner, Chicago Symphony rec. 1954 82876 61389 2

Tchaikovsky - Symphony 6, Pierre Monteux, Boston Symphony, rec 1955

On Sony - probably now deleted as Sony seem to have stopped releasing SACDs on their own native label:

Copland - Appalachian Spring + others, Leonard Bernstein, NY Phil, rec 1960. SS87327

Mahler - Symphony 1, Bernstein, NY Phil, rec 1967 SS7069

Stravinsky - Rite of Spring & Firebird Suite, Columbia Symphony Orch conducted by Stravinsky himself, rec 1962? SS89062

 

Unfortuantely, this is sometimes the case. However, IME it is mostly confined to pop & rock releases, where the label seems to have rushed the DSD conversion without a second thought (Snow Patrol anyone?).

As for MLP/DVDA, I agree with 3D, that when its done well, its pretty amazing (even in my very limited system). Christ, some of those Silverline DVDA re-issues were gobsmacking

However, given that its died a quiet death, and Dualdisc seems more focused on providing DD5.1 mixes on the dvd layer, I guess most will never find out just how good it could be

Having said that, I'm quite happy with SACD as a hi-rez digital source.

DT

 

And before anyone rushes in and tells alanbeeb that "the above are all available on vinyl" remember that the original pressing cost many hundreds of pounds in some cases. The SCR & Classic re-issues have (magazine propoganda aside) sound a bit flat & lifeless IMHO.

DT

 

Thanks for the tips alanbeeb - all on order. Cheers.