who has a sub?

do many of you use these things? I have a couple of hundred quid burning a hole,would any of you use a sub with an Audi Analogue Puccini,a Rotel RCD-1070 and B&W CDM1SEs?

if so,any recommendations?

 

I have a sub, and no and wouldn't recommend it with your sistem for music purposes. They're fine for AV, not so how in stereo. They CAN be made to work, but require quite a bit of tuning.
I'd personally suggest you spend you cash better elsewhere.

 

I'd second that,my thoughts exactly.

 

Nonsense, subs are brilliant for music! Not only do they add the bass notes and definition that many speakers miss, they also improve the clarity of midrange and treble. Not quite sure how they do the latter but it is believed to be something to do with reproducing the acoustic space in which the performance took place. Certainly works anyway

You won't get one worth having for 'a couple of hundred quid' though - unless you buy second hand. You might be able to pick up a REL Strata or Storm or something similar second hand.

Anything less really is only any good for watching 'Everything Blows Up 7'

Looking at the calibre of your system, something like a REL Strata or Storm would not be out of place.

 

I agree. A decent sub IME adds to all forms of music and music+pictures and integrates, of course. Given the quality of your kit I would want to spend more than you suggest though.

 

Absolute rubbish! Where do you boys get such comments from? Just because some people have had bad experiences using subs with music does not make it a universal rule that subs are bad for music. Even the mighty REL advises users to have their priorities right when making their sub selections i.e. if music is your priority then look to the ST range. If on the other hand, movies are your thing, then look to the Q-range. Also, the size of the room in which the sub will be working and the speakers one uses are important considerations when selecting a sub and it must be a quality sub or else all you'll get is crash, bang & wallop.

I am currently using the M.J. Acoustics Reference 150 sub http://www.mjacoustics.co.uk/mjacoustics_17.10.02/products/ref150.htm and as I am not a bass-head, this 10 inch woofered sub more than satisfies my requirements. Set-up was a breeze which amazed me given all the comments I'd heard about the difficulty in setting up and integrating subs. The most surprising thing apart from the fact that I have managed to get the sub to disappear from the room (literally, as it cannot be seen nor heard in the room) is that every aspect of the musical performance has been given a boost (see Technobear's comments). Even my tuner which I always considered the poor relation of the hifi family and which I hardly listened to has been given a massive boost in it's performance to the point now where I can listen to it for long periods of time and really enjoy the music not to mention music from the turntable and CD player which is now much more enjoyable to listen to. That's the effect a sub-woofer has had on the music in my system.




Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

I have an MJA Pro50 and I did use it for music when I first got it. I got it pretty well integrated too and was pretty happy with the results.

However, when I was arsing about with a few different amps I took it out of the system and I haven't put it back. I'd also changed the absolute phase of my system (the DAC64 inverts phase) so my sub was now out of phase (with the speakers) and even though it has a phase dial (from 0 to 180 deg.) I couldn't get the bugger integrated again so currently only use it for movies.

Once I have my new power amp ready (I've started building it!) I'll have another go at integrating it properly with all the room measurement gear.

When it was in (for music) I certianly had better bass extension but on removing it I felt that the bass was a lot tighter and more controlled even if it did lack those bottom few Hz. It'll be interesting to see whether I prefer it in or out of the stereo system next time around.

Michael.

 

Lawrie,

Thankyou for your reasoned response.
How about re-reading my previous reply again. I DID state that subs can be made to work, but it's not always easy and sometimes simply doesn't work. Took me months with my own REL unit.
As it happens, I do now use it for music, but feel that I would have been better of spending the cash elsewhere if it were ONLY used for music (it is most definitely useful in AV mode).

 

Saab, the beauty of using a decent sub for music is that you can easily tweak its volume control to adjust how much of the extra bass you hear. That's almost impossible with most conventional speakers. You can also turn the sub off when not required; another plus over conventional speakers.

Technobears point about adding clarity to midrange is a good one. I found the same effect in my system. I put this down to a couple of things.

First, the sub has its own amp, so I think it lightens the load on your existing stereo amp in the same way that bi-amping would do. Second, your main speakers are positioned to give good stereo image or sometimes they're just put where they'll fit in a room. This might not be the best place for smooth bass response. A sub doesn't have to live with the main speakers, so there's a chance you can put it where it will give better results at bass frequencies. These are just my thoughts as to why there's an improvement, but there are some articles that seem to back up these theories.

It does take a little work to get the best from your sub, but then the same is true of most decent HiFi. What has a really big influence on the final result is how smoothly you can integrate the overlap between your speakers and the extra bass from the sub. This crossover point is fixed at specific frequencies with most subs - 80Hz or 120Hz - which you select according to the size of your main speakers. Some of the better subs have a variable crossover point which allows you to set exactly where the sub starts to take over.

If you are interested I have a sub with this variable crossover function available for sale. It's a Focal JMLab Electra SW33a which is the slightly smaller brother to the
SW900 that Midland Audio Exchange have for sale s/h at £799

Regards

Hex

 

thanks for the replies

I will look to increasing my budget before i spend,and i will look at s/h,but not £799,£300 tops probably

 

Because I've owned Rogers LS3/5As for over 20 years (same ones!), I've always used subs, and I've never had this "integration" problem. The subs simply added the bass to the Rogers's great mid- and upper-range. I started with a Yamaha NS-W1, 'way back in the mid-80s, then progressed to a home-made one and now, for the last few weeks, I've had a Linn Sizmik (demo model). This is absolutely the best yet, adding deep bass in a very unobtrusive way. It helps that it is adjustable in all sorts of ways, so it can be tailored to your set-up and room (and personal tastes). So, I would never rule out a sub.

 

The point of the level control is to make sure that the sub-bass frequencies are reproduced at the same level as the rest of the sound spectrum so as to give an overall flat frequency response.

The sub connects to the line or speaker outputs of your main amp and has no effect on its operation whatsoever.

The sub has no effect on what the main speakers are doing. They will produce exactly the same sound as they did before introduction of the sub.

If your main speakers are bass-challenged, it may be that once the sub is adding the missing frequencies, you'll need less wall reinforcement for your main speakers and can move them further out into the room. This will generally benefit soundstage and imaging.

The purpose of the sub when used for music is to add the frequencies that your main speakers can't reproduce. Typically this is from 20 Hz to around 35 Hz as most rooms give a resonant lift to the output of your main speakers in the 35 Hz to 50 Hz region.

It is typical to have the sub frequency roll-off set as low as it will go unless your main speakers are very bass-challenged. Many subs don't permit the roll-off to be set low enough. REL is one that does.

Many newbies make the mistake of thinking they need to hear the sub doing its stuff all the time. This may be desirable for movies but is not the case for music. The sub should blend in so that you don't notice it. It should sound like your main speakers go down flat to 20 Hz.

It does help in setup if you have a test tones CD. There are test tone generators which can be downloaded free from the web and used to create .wav files which can then be burned onto a CD-R.

A sound level meter is also a boon. I use one of these:

http://www.cornwallelectronics.co.u...&category_id=f33545c885bc8403f07b6e4a07222d7e

 

Saab, be very wary of buying a bad sub - good ones (the MJ Ref 1, say) are excellent, the bad ones are very bad (for music).

 

I have two subs so I don't think you would believe me if I said that I am against them.
The advantage of mine, though, is that thes are integrated as part of a full frequency loudspeaker system. That means they were made to work with the satellites and not just to be working with any other loudspeakers. Therefore I had no problems to use them at all except for minor acoustical adjustments.

I never had experiences with mixing sub from one company with loudspeakers from other companies.
I think there are several technical points, which specialists like Merlin or 7V can explain better than me, to be aware of. I believe that lots of trouble that arise when adding a sub can be avoided if buying a good quality one but the main aspect is the room acoustic.
Lots of trouble which you might blame the sub or main speakers for will disappear after optimizing acoustically the room. Just think about the effect of standing waves or holes in different frequencies as well as vibrations and resonances.

 

True. Problems with standing waves can be minimised by adjusting the listening position so as to avoid the worst peaks. The best spot is generally around one third of the way into the room from the back wall.

Problems can also be reduced by adjusting the position and direction of the main speakers.

Various forms of absorption and diffusion can also be beneficial. Bookcases are quite good for breaking up reflections. In the very worst cases, bass traps can be used but I would experiment with seating and speaker position first.

 

I've got a REL Strata 3 and I'm more than happy with it.

I'd agree about the comments regarding setup but once you've got a position and setting you're happy with it definitely represents an improvement to the sound.

Bass is a subtle beast though. The improvements are not just confined to the bass - it influences the midrange and soundstage in surprising ways too.

 

I'd say a sub can work very well for music if the main speakers require some help. It depends upon what kind of music you listen to as well – the lowest notes produced by bass guitars/drums are around the 40Hz region so one could argue that a decent pair of standmounts (and certainly most floorstanders) would suffice. However, once you get into electronic bass or pipe organs then you can be talking some seriously low stuff.

I'd say you're looking at a minimum of £300 for something like an MJ Acoustics Ref100 but you really ought to be looking at the REL ST range, the Velodyne SPL range or something like a B&W ASW675. You get some decent ones around second hand too which can save you a lot of money.

Of course, I guess another question you should ask yourself is what other upgrades you could make for £300 – might this be enough to upgrade your standmount speakers to their floorstanding equivalents and could that give you the extra bass you require?

Best bet on the sub front is to borrow one from a dealer for a few days and see how it works with your system and, most importantly, in YOUR room – if it's really good then keep it.

One word of warning though – just because one sub works well in your room doesn't mean another will – I changed one 15†sub for another (the latter being in a slightly deeper enclosure) and the difference was marked – the first one was a doddle to integrate – the second one sounded dreadful when placed in the same spot and has proved a real pig to integrate!

Matt.

p.s. Hex – nearly all subs have variable crossovers, the general exception being THX subs that have a fixed 80Hz crossover. Also, connecting at line or speaker level won't reduce the load on the amp – you can reduce the load on the amp though by using a sub with a high pass crossover where the sub is wired in between the amp and speakers (where it filters out frequencies below a given Hz).

 

I have two REL Strata III, two subs are easier to setup, because, if they are placed symetrically, they cancel each others odd order harmonics...

 

As already suggested, I'd go down the road of replacing the B&Ws with a better pair of floorstanders, and use the £300 on that.

I've yet to come across a pair of speakers that can go as low as a good sub, however I'd expect the integration between bass and mid to be much better, and to be worth the compromise.

Let me give an example. I've heard a number of mid/sub based systems, most of which do have slightly different voicing between mid and bass ranges. One of the few real exceptions to this was the 7th Veil speaker package that was at Bristol, completely seemless. Chances are that this is because they were designed to work together though.

In comparison, I still rate WMs stereo as being the best CD based system I've heard, yet there's not a sub in sight, just a well tweaked and integrated system with a well driven pair of good 2 way floorstanders.

Still, all just my opinion...

 

Thanks (and Technobear as well) for the clarification. I'm using my sub with a TAG AV32R processor/pre-amp, so the bass management is done upstream of the sub - hence the main speakers and amps don't receive full range audio and consequently the amps are not required to drive the cones at lower bass frequencies - which is perhaps something I should have mentioned originally. I should have realised that the set-up would be different in a strictly 2 ch system with no bass management in the amp.

As for variable crossover points, are you saying that nearly all subs allow you to dial in the precise crossover frequency - or is it as I orginally understood that there are several selectable preset frequencies? My Rel Stadium II uses presets as does the Linn Sizmik 12.45 and I seem to remember one of the smaller Q series Rels.

Regards

Hex