Why cables can be expensive

For FF'k sake, how many times do I have to say it. I have been doing blind testing for over twenty years, I had 10 years of it on the Hi-Fi Choice panels, do you really think I don't know what it is. I know what it does and what it doesn't do, I know the psychology of it as I study it and practice it in my other persona as a weapon.

I have watched and laughed at so called famous designers and marketing men not even able to recognise their own product and be made to look complete idiots. You simply do not understand what is going on and what the process entails internally, in your energetic system, and the more you worry about it, the more you panic, and the more your perception shuts down. What do you think most people use music for, it is relaxation and emotion stimulation. The former is quite simply meditation, try to meditate in a state of stress!! The latter requires your energetic system to open to the stimulus and fear of failure and ridicule shuts it down. Why do you think I was used by Paul Messenger and HFC, because I couldn't give a shit!! I had no fear, I got into real trouble at one session at Pauls as my speakers were there, when they went on after two notes I just laughed and said Cubes. I have also done it with other speakers, the clearer more informative ones are so easy to spot. I remember when little JPW just musically pissed on KEFs and B&Ws costing twenty or thirty times more. And that is what you get with cable, changes in information. Speakers in Pauls Naim system were easy but cables would have been a bit different as it wasn't exactly very subtle.

So this is where the system used becomes important, if the window is dirty you cant see the fly poo!

 

Agreed.

Where I suspect we differ is that I often find these differences to be so small as to be inaudible, or if audible they are seldom important.

I also don't think that the differences in resolving power are as great as you indicate where amplifiers are concerned. Admittedly I have very limited experience with your amplifiers but I've used literally dozens of others and find that where they attain basic competency (the D Self test) they are equally able to resolve cable effects.

If an amplifier can resolve subtle differences downstream in say the TT setup, DAC, choice of tape on the open reel, different viny pressings etc, then it follows that it cannot be selectively 'deaf' to cable effects.

 

What you call expectation bias is mostly people trying to not make themselves look idiots, it is sheep behaviour, hide in the flock, do what is expected of you. Sometimes people have nothing to say but think they have to say something. It is all just normal human behaviour, we should celebrate it we are all just human, and far more humans are idiots than are geniuses. Celebrate the idiot

 

Well firstly, I would hope that you could identify Cubes, or many other speakers come to that as the differences are usually gross. I'd never blind test speakers - there is little point other than fun or to put the designer on the spot.

On your more substantive point with regard to the reaction of the body and mind at blind tests, even if you had a point you have to weight this against the equally unwelcome stress of sighted dem. The talking demonstrator, the presence of the designer, the desire not to say the wrong thing and look a tit in front of the others.
These things are still present at a conventional demonstration.

So even accepting you argument (which I don't) , blind testing still removes a number of serious obstacles to fair assessment.

 

If it is real but I can't hear it then you are correct, I am losing out.

 

Well, I think I will have to come and hear you demonstrate your cables and you'll need to come and hear me do the same.

I'm not certain why the issues in the above post would necessarily be more important at a blind dem than a sighted one. You can make stress arguments for both methods. I'll do a little research on Tai-Chi Chuan though.

Well this has been lively


<Richard, this is in response to your post 105 but it has now gone>

 

I deleted it as I thought it would just be misunderstood and for most people would be off topic.

 

I saw it and will look up the subject.

 

I thought the purpose of this thread is why cables are so expensive, not whether they should be, or whether they make a difference or not.

OK, this is simple. Here is how you get into the cable business:

Contact an outfit, like New England Wire Co.

http://www.newenglandwire.com/

If you can afford a 5000' run (what the minimum usually is), then all you have to do is pony up your money, get some sleeving and heat shrink, and voila! You are in the cable business.

The only reason cables are so expensive is that some of you think is has to be crap unless it is expensive. The cost of the wire/cable is not that much. (The most expensive one we use is around $3/foot.) Labor cost can not be anywhere near as much as say...........building a Class A amp. So, where does the cost come from?

Your gullibility, that is where. As I mentioned earlier, don't tell me you will all buy really good cables that are not expensive. I know that is not true. (A lot of that is the fault of the dealers, but that is another story for another time.)

Now, get mad if you want, but that is the bottom line. A certain "wire bandit" bragged at CES one year that their multi-kilobuck cable cost them $85, complete, boxed and ready for sale. So, where does that other $3500 go, or come from?

 

Actually I thought the OP was meant to be funny.

 

HI Dev,
I thought the original post WAS funny, and some of the follow ups too.

Naughty mischeivous Mr Triode Moderator for starting it.

 

Pat wrote 'Your gullibility, that is where. As I mentioned earlier, don't tell me you will all buy really good cables that are not expensive. I know that is not true. (A lot of that is the fault of the dealers, but that is another story for another time.)

Dealers at fault! How dare you sir!
VB Keith.

 

Dealer margins on cables are about of half of the price. So you give to the dealer the same money as you give the manufacturer, just for it to sit on his shelf waiting for you to walk into his web

So is on-line better and better priced. In some instances yes as they sell to you at trade (half price), for others it is just an excuse to get all the slurp for themselves.

The major advantage of on-line in the UK and EU is by law you must give a 30days full send back and refund option so you can get different cables to try for just the loss of postage cost. But watch out for companies that charge a re-stocking fee, it is dubious if it is legal but some companies do it.

 

I use Fuzion Kelsey for all my cables, they are 'pro audio' make extremely good quality cables , to any length, or type of connection, to give you an example ,their speaker cable, for 2x 3m banana terminated was £30 and their turnaround time is usually next day, highly recommended.

Keith.

 

The last blind test on cables I saw was one run at AVReview a few years back. They wanted to get forum people in on the test. It read like they were trying to herd cats.

The net result was those who thought they couldn't hear differences heard the least differences, those who did accurately spotted different cables and those in between wandered off.

http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/1863

 

Excellent post.

 

You are welcome to come on the 17th July if you can make it http://thehifisubjectivist.noadforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=162&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

There are always going to be people posting on a forum with hidden agenda. Someone who markets relatively high end kit on the basis of ephemera obviously has a very strong vested interest in trying to validate these ephemera.

All I am saying is bear this in mind when reading some threads.

Chris

 

Nobody wants to shut anyone up, Richard. This is not the Naim forum.

But if someone makes a claim which appears irrational, they should expect to be challenged over it.

Chris

 

So who are you, what do you do for a living, why is your agenda so obvious?