Why the probelm with large English brand names?

That's depressing.

It's a rather nebulous concept but I know what you mean. Anyway as long as when Mitch Mitchell hits the drums hard it sounds like he's hitting the drums hard I'm happy. And of course as long as tympani don't sound like bongoes....

Paul

 

Too true. Mind you the tonal balance of a drum set varies enormously depending on how far one is away from it. This is a rarely mentioned but pertinent fact, IMO.

 

As we've established. However, to go over it once again, they're much less limited in bass and loudness capability than many of the other options I could have gone for, such as 11Ls, which would however not have had the problems with room resonances which I currently get at low frequencies, particularly at high volume levels.

Forget about what speakers are used by you, me, or anyone else for a moment. Your original contention was that, in terms of 'accuracy', "rolling the extreme bass off is a smaller demerit than managing a boomy 40Hz. " I disagreed with this and suggested that actually in terms of accurate portrayal of what's on the disc, you're better off having uneven but well-extended bass than simply discarding the low bass, citing the abundance of content on CDs at frequencies well below 40Hz and the fact that discerning the degree of the scale of a low bass note (usually possible through harmonics even if the bass is rolled off high) is emphatically not the same as hearing it at the correct pitch. With typical decent-sized speakers in a typical room you're going to get problems with low-frequency room resonances and so forth leading to uneven bass, but I'd contend that this is still more faithful to the original than simply rolling the bass off. You can get a very clean and enjoyable sound without full-range playback, but that's not the same as calling it "accurate".

I don't entirely agree with you as I think that you're choosing to ignore the very important contributions to 'accuracy' made by wide bandwidth and dynamic range, partly by setting up a false dichotomy between "accuracy" and "effects" - so much of music is tremendously physical and visceral, and if your system can't reproduce the "effects" then it's definitely not "accurate". As I've said before in this thread, you can build a really terrific-sounding hifi system without full frequency range, etc., and that's absolutely fine. However, you can't really then come out and try to justify the choice of doing so by saying that it's "accurate" and implying that anyone who disagrees lacks your refined aesthetic judgement.

 

But is partial omission or attenuation not more accurate than mis-representation?

Aesthetic judgement has no place in this discussion.

Paul

 

Actually at some point we do of course need to make a subjective judgement, otherwise we could end up saying (for example) that a narrow +40dB peak centred at 30Hz is "better" than a similar -45dB trough centred at 30Hz because it's numerically less inaccurate.

Partial omission or attenuation is misrepresentation, and I'd contend that the kind of misrepresentation which at least allows you to hear what's supposed to be going on is more truthful to the original. That way you get a much closer approximation to the scale and impact of what's supposed to be on your disc, not to mention the actual pitch of the bass instruments at the correct octave even if you have to put up with some of the fundamentals sounding louder than others.

 

I aver that many systems that go low but lumpy lie to you about 'scale', 'impact' and 'actual pitch'. It's not as simple as 'some of the fundamentals sounding louder than others'.

Paul

 

Well, perhaps. However, systems that don't go low definitely do too.

 

I have to say, watching 2 doubters slug it out is most pleasing and all about bass too, haven't we been here before?
Symantics gents, neither of you are going to do 'proper bass' so why trade 'Lumpen human inadiquecies' over a few Hz?, hell if you like the sound of your system thats all that matters, you not doing a bub, so let the bands play on!

 

i'm afraid i'm going to have to side with pete on this one. from a purely mathematical point of view there is less error if a signal is present but 'wrong' than if it's missing altogether. however as to which sounds best - that's a subjective judgement and down to the individual.
just my 2p.
cheers


julian

 

Can't we simply plot the two frequency response curves, integrate them to calculate the areas under the curves, weight the findings by a Fletcher-Munson derivative and come up with a definitive answer to this one?

 

I had actually written something pretty close to that as the straw man in post #385 above, but I decided it might be a bit long-winded and deleted it.

 

I claim that as my idea from way back up the thread.

FWIW most speakers have a response down to dc. So it's not like anything is completely absent.

Paul

 

Steve,

let's remembeer that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains .

 

I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.
...


...
I must remember that accuracy and errors exist in both the frequency AND time domains.

 

Steve,

Now dont forget it!

 

Forget what Mr P?

 

I forget now, I think it was something to do with dominating time and being constrained

 

A dose of EX-Lax will cure that Andy

 

No need, I found Guiness